Revolvers for CQB
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Revolvers for CQB
I'm interested in peoples thoughts on revolvers for CQB. Good and bad comments are welcome. Also pros and cons.
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jimothy_183
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jimothy_183
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Well. Of course the basic pros and cons have been written about several times. But what I'm more interested in is peoples thoughts on the matter. And would they feel properly armed with a revolver in a CQB environment.
Let me say that I always carry a semi automatic on duty and have carried one off duty for years. However, recently I have started carrying a revolver off duty. And I like the gun so much I'm strongly considering buying a second revolver dedicated for home defense.
I once read the book, "Rouge Warrior." In the book it was noted that when Seal Team Six was first formed that they trained heavily with revolvers as their main sidearm for Hostage Rescue work. This seems sound, due to the fact that the guns are so reliable. In MOST CQB work you are likely to be working with a team, so the reduction in rounds from a semi automatic doesn't seems like that bad of a thing.
Don't get me wrong. Given a choice, depending on the mission I would likely chose a good semi automatic. But I do think that revolvers are generally looked down on buy that tactical community. When in fact they are great guns and could work really well for CQB. To often we feel like we need the most expensive and the latest and greatest equipment, without even considering other options.
Let me say that I always carry a semi automatic on duty and have carried one off duty for years. However, recently I have started carrying a revolver off duty. And I like the gun so much I'm strongly considering buying a second revolver dedicated for home defense.
I once read the book, "Rouge Warrior." In the book it was noted that when Seal Team Six was first formed that they trained heavily with revolvers as their main sidearm for Hostage Rescue work. This seems sound, due to the fact that the guns are so reliable. In MOST CQB work you are likely to be working with a team, so the reduction in rounds from a semi automatic doesn't seems like that bad of a thing.
Don't get me wrong. Given a choice, depending on the mission I would likely chose a good semi automatic. But I do think that revolvers are generally looked down on buy that tactical community. When in fact they are great guns and could work really well for CQB. To often we feel like we need the most expensive and the latest and greatest equipment, without even considering other options.
German MEK/SEK units use revolvers secondary for HRW, HosResc, and other operations. They changed the USPs and SIGs. Why?
They use MP5 for primary, with 2mags, with clip. (They use the clip that the have to turn the clip, when they change. This way, the spare/empty mag is always on the right)
MP5 is 9x19. Sometimes is not enough... they use SW .357. more firepower, more-more accuracy (think about HosResc), more types of bullets: non lethal, gas, whatever.
So its not a secondary weapon, its another weapon for special situation...
In this type of operations, the semi automatic secondary have no pros. So it depend on situation, revolver, or semi....
pic:
They use MP5 for primary, with 2mags, with clip. (They use the clip that the have to turn the clip, when they change. This way, the spare/empty mag is always on the right)
MP5 is 9x19. Sometimes is not enough... they use SW .357. more firepower, more-more accuracy (think about HosResc), more types of bullets: non lethal, gas, whatever.
So its not a secondary weapon, its another weapon for special situation...
In this type of operations, the semi automatic secondary have no pros. So it depend on situation, revolver, or semi....
pic:
WORK HARD, PLAY HARD!
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jimothy_183
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Yes, but the answer is simplier, HRW/HosResc. guys know it... In this type of situations, magchanges are very rarely... Why? Easy: Its not a battle, its a High Risk Arresting situation. So 4 or more guy for every suspect go inside. 30round each. No magchange, beleve me, the ready mag is only a last safety or "survival" (or worstcase) stuff for him. But grip with right is better and easier and more stable if the sparemag is on right.... Try it...
WORK HARD, PLAY HARD!
To be honest, as a secondary weapon I would rather have a revolver. If I had need of it, this means that either my primary weapon had some sort of malfunction or I ran out of ammunition.
If the former then I want my backup to work for sure. If the latter, then sure 6 rounds might not be as much as 20. But if 30 rounds out of a subgun could not do the work then either they are barricaded in nicely, there are way too many bad guys, or I am a terrible shot under pressure.
Having said this. CQB with a single handgun only I would prefer what I carry most since I would be most comfortable with it. Glock's rarely ever malfunction at all, and due to the shape of the weapon indexing is easy.
If the former then I want my backup to work for sure. If the latter, then sure 6 rounds might not be as much as 20. But if 30 rounds out of a subgun could not do the work then either they are barricaded in nicely, there are way too many bad guys, or I am a terrible shot under pressure.
Having said this. CQB with a single handgun only I would prefer what I carry most since I would be most comfortable with it. Glock's rarely ever malfunction at all, and due to the shape of the weapon indexing is easy.
"this good for CQB, and that is not" is a sentence no point... CQB is just an environmental factor of fighting, not more. Its about WHERE (only the part of where, exactly...)
Other words: Semi is better for CQB in hundreeds of situations. But these type of operations (above), the revolver is better choise. Fact.
by the way, Glock is a good pistol, but it can go wrong (Like other pistols, and revolvers), beleve me, I work and compete with it.
Legends about weapons are legends, not more. I saw AK blowing up lot of times. Two in this year, one in my hand. I saw two DA revolvers became SA in this last two WEEKS. One Colt, one Taurus... And we always have one or two Glock, out of work (my personal favorite, when G17 became G18
shooting fixed 2-3 series )... hundreeds of wrong magazines, etc.
Other words: Semi is better for CQB in hundreeds of situations. But these type of operations (above), the revolver is better choise. Fact.
by the way, Glock is a good pistol, but it can go wrong (Like other pistols, and revolvers), beleve me, I work and compete with it.
Legends about weapons are legends, not more. I saw AK blowing up lot of times. Two in this year, one in my hand. I saw two DA revolvers became SA in this last two WEEKS. One Colt, one Taurus... And we always have one or two Glock, out of work (my personal favorite, when G17 became G18
shooting fixed 2-3 series )... hundreeds of wrong magazines, etc.WORK HARD, PLAY HARD!
I shot a couple hundred rounds today out of a SMALL revolver. Doing CQB shooting. Challenging to be sure but it got the job done. A very reliable back up weapon.
Even if I am carrying a large semi automatic handgun it is still nice to have a small revolver in a holster, pouch or pocketed somewhere for a last ditch gun.
I think semi automatics that are VERY small are too prone to malfunctions. For real hideaway I would use a revolver every time.
Even if I am carrying a large semi automatic handgun it is still nice to have a small revolver in a holster, pouch or pocketed somewhere for a last ditch gun.
I think semi automatics that are VERY small are too prone to malfunctions. For real hideaway I would use a revolver every time.
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jimothy_183
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jimothy_183
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Cool, this might be a good essay for you to digest if you haven't already read it.
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus
Re: Revolvers for CQB
So.
Pros:
Reliability
Mixture of ammunition types (not normally found in semi-automatic calibres)
More accuracy (depending on shooter skill)
Most probably less weight, less rounds and you wouldn't take as many
Good penetration (windshields etc, higher muzzle velocity and kinect energy for around 50 yards compared with other cartridges - depending on ammunition used)
Good wound ballistics (tends to expand nicely)
Cons:
Recoil (depending on shooter skill)
Normally not as compact (unless snub nose)
Less rounds
Less suppression effect due to less rounds
Longer reloading time
No full-auto capability (could be a con sometimes, good to mention anyway)
Good topic, keep it up.
.357 sig:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22265
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7 ... hlight=357
Pros:
Reliability
Mixture of ammunition types (not normally found in semi-automatic calibres)
More accuracy (depending on shooter skill)
Most probably less weight, less rounds and you wouldn't take as many
Good penetration (windshields etc, higher muzzle velocity and kinect energy for around 50 yards compared with other cartridges - depending on ammunition used)
Good wound ballistics (tends to expand nicely)
Cons:
Recoil (depending on shooter skill)
Normally not as compact (unless snub nose)
Less rounds
Less suppression effect due to less rounds
Longer reloading time
No full-auto capability (could be a con sometimes, good to mention anyway)
Good topic, keep it up.
.357 sig:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22265
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7 ... hlight=357
Last edited by Ryan on Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.
"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."
"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."
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jimothy_183
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Re: Revolvers for CQB
I'm not sure I would agree with all those points but I would also add to the pros that misfires are easy to remedy as you simply press the trigger again as the cylinder rotates to the next round.
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus
Re: Revolvers for CQB
I have an absolutely subjective oppinion about revolvers:
Mag capacity, and reliability: I dont belive the FBI statistics about gunfights. 99%, 3-4 shots, 3-7meters, and the others. I think, if you are in trouble, more ammo is better. I think if you are in big trouble, your first mag is maybe enough to cover your move behind cover, or you can take enough firepower for good supressing fire to dominate and prepare to move.
the emty mag is a malfunction! Its a non planned event, what makes your gun out of work (do not forget: its not a competition, its a real situation. high stress, and like this). Movement of this case: magchange. So, if you have one malfunction with the semi, sure you have three with revolver, its simple mathematics. Double feed, missfire, i know... Train for semi's malfunctions. Not hard, just about training time.
Concealed carry: snubbies and compacts are good for home defense or self defense for citizens or if the concealing is the first. snubby is simply and have big power, compact have more ammo. Everybody who carry a gun concealed knows for carry the snubbie is more better then double stack subcompacts. But if you are in real danger (because of your job, or some else) no compromise. Carry full size big power semi automatic.
power: .44mag is a joke. good for fun, or hunting with 8inch barrels. if the 9mil COR-bon is not enough for self defense: 357sig, 10mm auto, 40SW, .45ACP.... 357 is why better then this??
recoil: who care??
more accuracy: I think accuracy is about: grip, aiming, trigger controll and stress (body) controll and about relations of these. I like the semis grip. I like the semi's trigger. semi's SA is better than revolvers DA.
summary:
Revolvers for citizens, housewifes, and virgins. Semi for professionals. Revolvers for BUG or secondary for special operations (need more power, special ammo, blabla).
My way:
I carry my Glock 17 GEN2, made ready, with one extra mag in my pocket. I habit it. I have many type of holsters, funnypacks. If I work (sometimes we transport .50 heavy anti material rifles, or more than 200thousend rounds) I carry my Glock, 2 normal mags and 2 long (33) mags, and I carry my SW snubbie for BUG.
Mag capacity, and reliability: I dont belive the FBI statistics about gunfights. 99%, 3-4 shots, 3-7meters, and the others. I think, if you are in trouble, more ammo is better. I think if you are in big trouble, your first mag is maybe enough to cover your move behind cover, or you can take enough firepower for good supressing fire to dominate and prepare to move.
the emty mag is a malfunction! Its a non planned event, what makes your gun out of work (do not forget: its not a competition, its a real situation. high stress, and like this). Movement of this case: magchange. So, if you have one malfunction with the semi, sure you have three with revolver, its simple mathematics. Double feed, missfire, i know... Train for semi's malfunctions. Not hard, just about training time.
Concealed carry: snubbies and compacts are good for home defense or self defense for citizens or if the concealing is the first. snubby is simply and have big power, compact have more ammo. Everybody who carry a gun concealed knows for carry the snubbie is more better then double stack subcompacts. But if you are in real danger (because of your job, or some else) no compromise. Carry full size big power semi automatic.
power: .44mag is a joke. good for fun, or hunting with 8inch barrels. if the 9mil COR-bon is not enough for self defense: 357sig, 10mm auto, 40SW, .45ACP.... 357 is why better then this??
recoil: who care??
more accuracy: I think accuracy is about: grip, aiming, trigger controll and stress (body) controll and about relations of these. I like the semis grip. I like the semi's trigger. semi's SA is better than revolvers DA.
summary:
Revolvers for citizens, housewifes, and virgins. Semi for professionals. Revolvers for BUG or secondary for special operations (need more power, special ammo, blabla).
My way:
I carry my Glock 17 GEN2, made ready, with one extra mag in my pocket. I habit it. I have many type of holsters, funnypacks. If I work (sometimes we transport .50 heavy anti material rifles, or more than 200thousend rounds) I carry my Glock, 2 normal mags and 2 long (33) mags, and I carry my SW snubbie for BUG.
WORK HARD, PLAY HARD!
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jimothy_183
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Re: Revolvers for CQB
No, this is the complete opposite of what I meant.Ryan wrote: Cons:
Recoil (depending on shooter skill)
Double feed and other jams can be devestating
Normally not as compact (unless snub nose)
Less rounds
Less suppression effect due to less rounds
Misfires may be more common
Longer reloading time
No full-auto capability (could be a con sometimes, good to mention anyway)
1. Does this sound like a con?jimothy_183 wrote:I'm not sure I would agree with all those points but I would also add to the pros that misfires are easy to remedy as you simply press the trigger again as the cylinder rotates to the next round.
2. Was there any mention of misfires being more common?
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus