Bullpups

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El Freddio
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Bullpups

Post by El Freddio » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:09 am

Hey, I just wanna ask what you guys think about bullpup weapons like the AUG, F2000, TAR 21, P 90, L85A2, FAMAS etc in CQC?
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Ryan
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Re: Bullpups

Post by Ryan » Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:50 am

The main advantage of a bullpup is it is the same length barrel as a rifle with overall length of a carbine making it more 'accessible' within confined spaces. The rifle mass is also closer to the shooter, making it feel lighter and therefore easier and quicker to point. But that's all theory, it depends on the shooter.

I'm not sure if there are any major disadvantages, other than you can't have a collapsable stock to handle wearing armour. To me that is the only real drawback of the Steyr (AUG, F88). The pull of the rifle (length from butt to trigger) can't be easily altered, without redesigning the weapon.

The M16 can just fit a shorter stock, which is why the M4 went to a collapsable one.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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geryban
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Re: Bullpups

Post by geryban » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:15 am

The biggest cons of bullpop is that you cant switch your hands. In CQB it means your life perhabs. Another one is that the mag too close to your body/vest, I had some problems with it in the range during rapid unorthodox movements around the barricade, or during magchange, but maybe its just my sick... :DD

The AUG is a very reliable weapon (seems like a HILTI drill), all respect, but personally i dont like it
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jimothy_183
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Re: Bullpups

Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:41 am

What do you think of the trigger pull in comparison with something like an AR type rifle?
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El Freddio
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Re: Bullpups

Post by El Freddio » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:42 am

geryban wrote:The biggest cons of bullpop is that you cant switch your hands. In CQB it means your life perhabs. Another one is that the mag too close to your body/vest, I had some problems with it in the range during rapid unorthodox movements around the barricade, or during magchange, but maybe its just my sick... :DD

The AUG is a very reliable weapon (seems like a HILTI drill), all respect, but personally i dont like it
Well, the FN F2000 or Kel Tec RFB are ambidextrous. Still doesn't fix the magazine problem though.
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Ryan
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Re: Bullpups

Post by Ryan » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:19 am

F88SA3!
Image
1. Longer top rail, introduction of side and bottom rails significantly increases the number of weapon ancillaries that can be attached.
2. Designed for Interoperable Ammunition designed for optimal performance with new interoperable F1A1 5.56mm ammunition.
3. Length of Pull has been shortened by 15mm improves the ability of the operator to handle the weapon while wearing body armour.
4. Modular Lower Fore End enables operator to change ancillaries and roles in the field.
5. Floating Barrel removal of attachment point from barrel increases the accuracy and reliability of the weapon.
6. Fluted Barrel reduction in barrel weight and increase in performance.
7. Folding Cocking Handle improvement in ergonomics and correction of vulnerability in current design.
8. Improved Butt design increased strength to improve safety, ejection port cover recessed to improved operator interface and reliability.
9. Provision for Electronic Architecture to allow centralised control and power management of ancillary devices.
10. Bolt-together Butt to allow access to fit, maintain and repair the Electronic Architecture components.
11. Improved Butt Plate improves operator interface and correction of vulnerability in current design.
12. Improved Grenade Launcher Mount improves the balance of the weapon, reducing operator fatigue and increasing accuracy.
13. Side-opening Grenade Launcher can fire all currently available 40mm low velocity grenades (current M203 Launcher is limited).
14. Improved Grenade Launcher safety reduces possibility of unauthorised discharge and danger to operator in the event of misfire.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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jimothy_183
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Re: Bullpups

Post by jimothy_183 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:05 am

That is actually designated the EF-88 and is to be fielded by the year 2015.
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Ryan
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Re: Bullpups

Post by Ryan » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:17 am

Anyone use brass deflectors here?
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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DareTactical
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Re: Bullpups

Post by DareTactical » Sat May 30, 2015 5:44 pm

As someone who used the SA80A2 (L85A2) for many years, I have some idea about the benefits and shortcomings of bullpups.

Why Bullpups can be bad:
Firstly, the SA80A2 is one of the worse examples of a bullpup config service rifle. It is extremely accurate for a 5.56 due to its long barrel in a shortish weapon, but is also very heavy (due to British engineers thought that a full metal body, except for contact points, was the way to go.. :( . It's weight does help mitigate recoil, and had it been made into a 7.62 or a modern 6.5, it would be an excellent DMR rifle, but this is not the case. (The L86A2 served this role for a time, but 5.56 at 600m is not very effective at dropping people).
It has a cocking handle on the right side which makes it awkward to cock and check for stoppages.
The cocking handle is fixed to the bolt carrier assembly and thus reciprocates when fired, which means that firing from the left shoulder is not impossible, but very risky if not done properly.

These problems are usually not associated with other Bullpups except for the difficulty firing left shouldered. Most bullpups have a built in brass deflector, but these can only do so much. The problem is that when it is left shouldered, with a right side ejection port, the user's cheek is very close to the ejection port, so hot gasses and a deafening bang are gonna come out of it, along with the hot brass of course.

F2000, P90, VHS 2 and RDBs have resolved these issues in their own way, and on models which have solved this problem, Bullpups can be said to be the ultimate modern CQB weapon. These are due to their good barrel length (which allows for sufficient accuracy and muzzle velocity), their short overall length (ideal for cornering), and the short distance between the shoulder and the forward grip which allows the weapon to be shoulder transitioned using primary hands instead of having to switch hands (very useful, keeping in mind points mentioned earlier).

At the end of the day, I would pick a bullpup to use when going into CQB situation or heavily urban conflict zone. Ideally something like a TAR-21, with an added large cheek protector/brass deflector, firing 6.5mm Grendel, with a 2 shot burst mode, with a vertical fore grip and a an Elcan Specter OS 4x sight with a red dot reflex on top. I don't think i'm asking too much.

Since my ideal rifle doesn't exist, the best CQB weapons are still: FN F2000, CTAR 21, X-95 L (which is a Tavor variant), and FN P90.

The Kel-tec RDB seems very promising especially since it will be able to fire the 6.5mm Grendel soon (this is perhaps the best intermediate cartridge available in terms of stopping power, range and overall efficiency), not to mention it has a rear downward ejecting ejection port, like the P90. It just hasn't been battle tested/proven yet.
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