Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Moderator: jimothy_183

Post Reply
Dramatikk

Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Post by Dramatikk » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:50 pm

The question is rather simple. Wich pistol and rifle calibers is best suited for room clearings?

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Post by Ryan » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:02 am

Multi-choice is good due to different scenario's and role e.g. coming across body armour, needing barrier penetration, hostage rescue so nil over penetration.

7.62 (.308) for long-rifle, .50BMG (12.7) for anti-matieriel, 5.56 (.223) for barrier penetration and body armour penetration on set loads, 6.8 or 6.5 for superior wounding effect (large potential to drop them quicker), .45 for the same but useless on body armour, 9mm for not over penetrating and very controllable. Then again all loads can be frangible or ceramic so they can do the same job of not overpenetrating but will create a large shallow wound.

There is no perfect choice so I'd go with a mixed team but 9mm and 5.56 tends to be a main choice.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Dramatikk

Re: Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Post by Dramatikk » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:02 pm

I've heard a lot of good stuff about the 10mm round. With both high velocity and stopping power. Why isn't this caliber used more often in cqb?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Post by Ryan » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:11 am

Politics probably.

http://au.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkmCEu5 ... _notes.pdf

:)


Why 9mm? Why .45? Especially interested in the 9mm, for the MP5.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
jimothy_183
Military
Posts: 1030
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:29 am

Ryan wrote: Multi-choice is good due to different scenario's and role e.g. coming across body armour, needing barrier penetration, hostage rescue so nil over penetration.
Yes, you will see most teams opting to run a combination whenever they can.
Ryan wrote: .45 for the same but useless on body armour
No, remember that body armour is only designed to prevent the bullet from penetrating and does not stop the kinetic energy that comes with it so it will still have some sort of effect on the target. I would imagine that it would be somewhat like a bean bag round.
Ryan wrote: Why 9mm? Why .45? Especially interested in the 9mm, for the MP5.
I believe that this has to do with the 2 schools of thought.

The first is very American with the obsession with large caliber "manstoppers". You get less rounds but the thought is that it doesnt matter if you make all your rounds count.

The second is very European with the obsession with smaller but higher velocity rounds with the added plus of a higher capacity.

Sometimes the former is refered to as "old school" and the latter as "new school".

Start first vid @ 4:15




Ryan wrote: There is no perfect choice
True, remember that all handguns are underpowered to begin with. Like most of those other "endless comparison" debates (eg: AK v AR) it is pointless to argue which one is best. The most you can do is list out all the pros and cons of each system, because at the end of the day it really just becomes a tie or a stalemate and that's because most of the time both a proven systems.

When you get into a debate like AK v AR or 9mil v .45 there is not "best" or "winner". You should try to get both, if you can't then you make a choice of one or the other based on:

1. Your mission/purpose

2. Your personal preference

And at the end of the day the real, ultimate question is: Are you able to use either systems effectively?

If the answer is no then everthing else in the debate becomes pointless.



semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Post by Ryan » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:21 am

jimothy_183 wrote: No, remember that body armour is only designed to prevent the bullet from penetrating and does not stop the kinetic energy that comes with it so it will still have some sort of effect on the target. I would imagine that it would be somewhat like a bean bag round.
Yeah I was meaning in context to penetration. No doubt, it can break ribs and all kinds of damage, and a rib fracture alone can do a wide range of damage; even life-threatening!

Fully agree with what you said. It's good to understand capabilities for role, there is no winner but you can weigh up the facts. So Dramatikk, question is... what do you think is the best calibre suited to General CQB? :P

"I have been doing a bit of thinking about calibres and power and so on. In thinking about a .22LR or the .17HMR I think just about every round ever invented has a purpose that it is perfect for. For example even though the .22LR isn't as "powerful" or as accurate at say even 100m [than my .243], but it is probably going to be chambered in my next rifle. It has other attribute that make it an incredible little round, it's quiet and it kills without destroying the meat on the target animal AND I can shoot it on properties as small as 5 acres. The problem when discussing different rounds is that uneducated people think that the most powerful hard hitting round is going to be the best no matter what. In the case of the 9mm its main competition these days is the .45ACP - mostly used in handguns and SMG's and are chambered in these two rounds. As before it totaly depends on the use of the round as to whether it is a good choice or not. From my limited knowledge about handgun based rounds the 9mm is a very accurate (at short distances say 40 yards) with low recoil, a round that hits hard enough to take down a human target very efficiently if used in the correct manner. Not having huge recoil makes it a fantastic round for SMG's. MP5's are probably used by more SWAT and Special Forces teams around the world than any other SMG. The 9mm does not hit anywhere near as hard as a .45ACP due the ability to place 3-4 shots very quickly in the right place without killing an innocent person in the room behind a target; that is an amazing ability. So, the 9mm is perfect for LE work and clearing houses or buildings. On the other hand if you're in a war, I'd take the .45 as it will without a doubt drop anything out to 100m with a single upper body hit. And another point is mag sizes; a 9mm Glock I think can hold 15 rnds [rounds] and a 1911 .45 holds 7." - Glenn.

And the engineer said "The MP5 is fun to shoot and ideal in CQB, but beyond 20m forget it... ah, 9mm is shite at any range. Accurate enough, just not very damaging as a pistol cartridge. You get a higher MV [Muzzle Velocity] than a pistol but it is still a subsonic round".
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
jimothy_183
Military
Posts: 1030
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Post by jimothy_183 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:00 am

Ryan wrote: Fully agree with what you said. It's good to understand capabilities for role, there is no winner but you can weigh up the facts.

"I have been doing a bit of thinking about calibres and power and so on. In thinking about a .22LR or the .17HMR I think just about every round ever invented has a purpose that it is perfect for."
That sounds about right. I've posted this before but I will post it again.

http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/04/ ... rifle.html
Gabe Suarez wrote:
THERE IS NO PERFECT RIFLE

THERE IS NO PERFECT RIFLE

THERE IS NO PERFECT RIFLE

The 308 battle rifle is great until you need to hide it in a tennis raquet bag and walk through an NPE. The 308 battle rifle is great until you need to hump it for ten miles through rough terrain or run the walls in a house. The Assault Rifle in 223/545/ or 7.62x39 is great until you need to hit a man at 600 yards and kill him dead on the spot. Or shoot in a high wind, or penetrate what he is hiding behind. The SMG is great until you need to reach way out there or punch through body armor...or a car door. The Bolt Gun Sniper Rifle is great until you have a platoon charging at you with disciplined fire and maneuver....or you need to clear a house.

another little saying.....

ALL WEAPONS ARE "SPECIAL WEAPONS"

ALL WEAPONS ARE "SPECIAL WEAPONS"

ALL WEAPONS ARE "SPECIAL WEAPONS"
As for the rest of glenn's and the engineer's posts, in my opnion, is a bit dodgy in some places.
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Post by Ryan » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:08 am

"Not good at longer ranges, cause it is a pistol round with all the inherent limitations of that. Effective over typical pistol engagement ranges."
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Dramatikk

Re: Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Post by Dramatikk » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:34 am

If I would choose a caliber for use in a cqb enviroment, the caliber of choice would have been the 45 acp(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP). This is a heavy bullet that delivers alot of "punch", and it does not overpenetrate any target ... So, from me the 45 acp cartridge gets my personal thumbs up! Weapon of choice could then be for example the Heckler & Koch UMP 45 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_UMP



Or, the KRISS - http://www.kriss-tdi.com/



Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Post by Ryan » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:45 am

:D The KRISS looks great, but I haven't seen it used in teams around the world... Wonder why? That rate of fire is insanity. I wonder if any military has tested it, and what the jam rate and lifespan is for that kind of mechanism.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter, I agree with Jimothy, it's how the operator uses it in the situation that confronts them but it's a strategic move within itself to outfit a team or group with a weapon and round (or variety of) that offers the best potential for capabilities akin to their role.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
jimothy_183
Military
Posts: 1030
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Post by jimothy_183 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:06 am

Ryan wrote::D The KRISS looks great, but I haven't seen it used in teams around the world... Wonder why?
$$$
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Post by Ryan » Fri May 25, 2012 4:46 am

Found a funny picture on the 10mm....

Image
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
jimothy_183
Military
Posts: 1030
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: Pistol & Rifle Caliber of Choice?

Post by jimothy_183 » Fri May 25, 2012 11:43 am

Someone could have as easily made that for the .45 :lol:
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

Post Reply

Return to “Weapons”