Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

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Ryan
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Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Ryan » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:32 pm

Opinions?

Mine are that it is light, small and easy to handle. It is very accurate and reliable, which is very important for close quarters. Even though the round (9mm) may lack in penetration and terminal ballistics, this is for good reason as you may injure or harm the good guys. Wound ballistics don't matter with this thing is accurate enough to get a good grouping between your eyebrows - it comes with burst and full auto modes if that doesn't do the job.

Although most types of body armour can withstand the impact and sucessfully stop on-going 9mm rounds, it is still a very substantial weapon in CT. It doesn't have the scary looks, hard hitting big rounds or over the top progaganda* attached to it's existence but it proves that size doesn't matter, it's the person behind the trigger operating that weapon that does. :P

*Except maybe for:
Image

:D
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Dramatikk

Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Dramatikk » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:04 pm

First off I have never fired a single round with the hk mp5, but I have seen it and I have been holding it.(the real deal, no airsoft)

I have to agree with you regarding the lightnes in weight and shortnes in lenght of this weapon. The hk mp5 is very maneuverable gun with OK combat sights and a short barrel. This weapon was primarily made for police units and for use in airports, but have now found its way to various units world wide police and military alike.

The only flaw this weapon have is its small pistol calibre and short barrel. This combination will make it hard for to projectile to penetrate kevlar vests, but this is the price you have to pay in order to have a small, light and controllable weapon for use in CQB. On the plus side, this lack of beating kevlar vests will in other word mean that this projectile will not over-penetrate when fired on the target. This meaning the projectile will not travel through a whole building and out on the street hitting a bystanding civilian.

Furthermore with a cartridge as small as the 9x19mm, the recoil is nothing worse than that the person shooting the mp5 will have no problem controlling the recoil of the shots fired. The smaller the recoil, the better the operator can keep his/ hers sight picture after each shot. You can fire faster because you do not have to "fight" the recoil in order to find the target with your sight picture after each shot. This again will result in better accuracy even when fired rapidly, because the barrel of the weapon is steady.

The HK mp5 series was all in all made for use in close quarters. That is its main purpose.

Now many units have changed out the old HK mp5 with the HK mp7. LINK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjY0Us7NOns
This weapon is said to much better penetrate kevlar vests, something the old HK mp5 did not do so well.

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

OT- EDIT: I have always had a thing for the bullpup design, because the bullpup design allows a longer barrel(higher bullet velocity, more penetration) to be fitted inside the stock. This without increasing the overall weapon lenght, so you can keep the mobility of a shorter barreled weapon.

Check out the Israeli Tar-21 for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Tavor_TAR-21

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Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Ryan » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:01 am

Yes the MP7 is another great weapon system, GSG-9 and other police and CT teams alike seem to enjoy it (the A1 variant). It is said to have good penetration effects and apparently good wound profiles on soft tissue, with lots of tumble and yaw causing a bigger permament cavity than similar rounds. There is not a lot of real research out there for the penetration capabilities, at least that I could find - I don't listen to half the stuff in Future Weapons :P but here is a link: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=69698.

"4.6x30mm has seen limited fielding in combat; performance is on par with similar small caliber PDW weapon systems. The MP7 is a compact, lightweight platform that is easily controlled when used full auto while trying to get enough hits on the bad guys to stop their hostile actions.

4.6x30mm does NOT go through SAPI or eSAPI plates; CRISAT is a joke... " - Dr Gary K Roberts.

Then again, nothing is really proven (especially for the military and the FMJ rule) of destroying a target quickly and with minimal fuss in CQB except for shot placement, and it is very accurate with minimal recoil as stated - I'm glad this weapon also boasts a full auto capability for overall effect on target as well. At least LE will get the capability to use expanding rounds with this weapon system.


The TAR-21 looks brilliant, if Israel wanted to make a great multi-role weapon then they've succeeded. It is great for the urban theatres they operate in. The TDI Vector (KRISS) is a great weapon as well, chambered in .45 ACP and the ability to be chambered in .40S&W. If they really wanted to change the MP5 (which I certainly would not want to) then they have a lot of choices at hand.

All can be fully customised for the operator, I guess it is up to the operator to decide based on key principles: the mission, his/her role in that and availability. There certainly is a lot of variants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP5) out there for any scenario, and the MP7 adds to that collection.

Image
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Dramatikk

Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Dramatikk » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:40 pm

Russian copycat?


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Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Ryan » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:52 am

Heh, who wouldn't want to copy it, it is a great weapon.

The Russians have some other great MP5-like weaponary:
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Ryan » Sat May 28, 2011 3:03 am

So what are the reasons to use other weapons along side the MP5 like the M4?

I see quite a few images of this. And from the pro's and con's, where would the M4 users be within the teams SOP's, where would the M4 or other weapons be used to where the MP5 wouldn't do as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_rifle

My thoughts:
M4 offers a huge range of ammunition for penetrating - anything from construction material to some types of body armour.

The M4 can have a shortened barrel and adjustable stock (even remove it if you want) so it can be used in CQB with more fluidity.

High velocity ammunition that is better for penetrating (sectional density, ammunition types and velocity).

Rifle loads have better wound ballistics and different ammunition can have totally different effects. There are also good CQB loads and shallow penetration loads.

You could use a longer barrel and different variations in order to use it as some kind of designated marksman or lower accuracy sniper weapon system. Ammunition like the MK262 can help improve this.

Maritime CT or similar where you may need longer range on route to and within a boat or helicopter.

Intimidates - it is a scary looking weapon when you're looking down it's barrel and in my opinion if I was a bad guy seeing guys come at me equipped with a variety of weaponary like the M4/MP5 and different pistols then I'd know these guys are ready for anything and that would lower my moral.

Image
Image
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by jimothy_183 » Sat May 28, 2011 4:46 am

http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/04/ ... rifle.html
Gabe Suarez wrote:
THERE IS NO PERFECT RIFLE

THERE IS NO PERFECT RIFLE

THERE IS NO PERFECT RIFLE

The 308 battle rifle is great until you need to hide it in a tennis raquet bag and walk through an NPE. The 308 battle rifle is great until you need to hump it for ten miles through rough terrain or run the walls in a house. The Assault Rifle in 223/545/ or 7.62x39 is great until you need to hit a man at 600 yards and kill him dead on the spot. Or shoot in a high wind, or penetrate what he is hiding behind. The SMG is great until you need to reach way out there or punch through body armor...or a car door. The Bolt Gun Sniper Rifle is great until you have a platoon charging at you with disciplined fire and maneuver....or you need to clear a house.

another little saying.....

ALL WEAPONS ARE "SPECIAL WEAPONS"

ALL WEAPONS ARE "SPECIAL WEAPONS"

ALL WEAPONS ARE "SPECIAL WEAPONS"
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

Dramatikk

Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Dramatikk » Sat May 28, 2011 10:33 am

I agree with you Jimothy. There is nothing in this world that is perfect.

Talking about carbines for use in CQB:

OB-15 M8 - http://www.oberlandarms.com/index.php?c ... ge=details

OB-15 M7 - http://www.oberlandarms.com/index.php?c ... ge=details

These rifles must come handy in house searches. :roll:

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

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Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Ryan » Sun May 29, 2011 2:49 am

Cool rifles, what would be the points for a good close quarters battle rifle? Weight, length, capability, possible the calibre or ammunition selection?

And no I wasn't saying "Hey, what is a perfect CQB rifle?" I was asking why would an M4 or similar be used alongside an MP5? And why would it be used over weaponary like the MP5? I see photos and videos of operators mixing up weapons, I was just wondering about your points of view on the reasons. I disagree with that persons post, it's more of a vague overview of generalised reasons.... it's good to know the general points but I was talking detail.

There are a lot of points you argue with; .308's can fit into a tennis racket if you dismantle them, take off the butt stock, use a shortened barrel, all kinds of things. You're going to try make it work. :P
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by corvus » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:11 pm

We us an AR-15 with a 11.5 in barrel, and telescooping stock. It provides the additional firepower of the 5.56 over the 9mm. In a package almost as small as a fully extended H&K MP5. plus the shorter barrel makes it just as easy to move it around in a CQB enviroment. I'm not saying it's the perfect weapon, but it is a great CQB weapon.

the website we get our specialty ARs from is http://www.ar15builder.com/
Last edited by corvus on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When a sniper takes a shot, there are countless variables to consider before squeezing the trigger --- wind speed, wind direction, range, target movement, mirage, light source, temperature, barometric pressure, and that's just the beginning.

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Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by corvus » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:20 pm

and for your question of why operators switch between the M4s and the MP5s it's probably because the M4s are good for the 100yrds (long CQB) to 75yrds (mid-long CQB) the MP5 is not good for that range, and they use the MP5s for 50yrds(mid CQB) and under because of the greater mobility it provides. I have handled both weapons, and while I love the M4. The MP5 is an easier CQB weapon, in my opinion, to move around with.
When a sniper takes a shot, there are countless variables to consider before squeezing the trigger --- wind speed, wind direction, range, target movement, mirage, light source, temperature, barometric pressure, and that's just the beginning.

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Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by jimothy_183 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:23 am

corvus wrote:We us an AR-15 with a 11.5 in barrel, and telescooping stock. It provides the additional firepower of the 5.56 over the 9mm. In a package almost as small as a fully extended H&K MP5. plus the shorter barrel makes it just as easy to move it around in a CQB enviroment. I'm not saying it's the perfect weapon, but it is a great CQB weapon.
Please don't take in what I say in the following as fact until it has been verified.


Rifle rounds like the .223 are not always more powerful than the 9mm as you must take range, bullet weight and shape into consideration. Different calibres will do more damage at different ranges. Here is a very simple chart of what I mean:

Image

The chart generalises the ballistics but it is accurate enough to show you the general idea of what I'm talking about.

As you can see here the rifle actually starts off as being the weakest round but it retains a lot of its power after its flown a long distance as opposed to the other two. It retains its power over a longer distance because of it's (high) muzzle velocity and its Ballistic Coefficient (i.e: aerodynamic bullet shape).

The pistol round however is more powerful than the rifle at close range and weaker at long range quite simply because of three things: Bullet weight, bullet shape and velocity.

Let's compare the .45 to the .223 (5.56mm):
.45
Bullet Weight: 230 grains
Muzzle velocity: 850 FPS
Bullet Diameter: .45 inches
Bullet Shape: Round nose (FMJ)

.223
Bullet Weight: Variable, usually 55 grains
Muzzle Velocity: Variable, between 2500-3500 FPS
Bullet Diameter: .223 inches
Bullet Shape: Spitzer (FMJ)

Lets look at weight first. Simple physics state that more weight contribute to more power. Newton's Second Law: Force = Mass x Acceleration.

Velocity, its true that higher velocities can cause damage by Hydrostatic Shock but what causes more damage is when a slower moving bullet transfers more energy impacts it's target. But the big picture is that it needs to transfer energy. Take an ice pick out and stab a watermelon and your not going to do much damage since your not transferring much energy. Take a mallet out and hit the watermelon with it and it's going to break since your transferring a lot more energy. Therefore a bullet that passes through the other side of a target that kinetic energy is just going out with that bullet and is therefore wasted.

Lastly let's look at diameter and shape together. The .45 is wider than the .223, therefore it will cause tissue damage over a larger area. Also the round nose will cause more damage as it will rip up more tissue when it punctures flesh as opposed to the spitzer which will make a cleaner entry wound with its sharp nose. Of course the reason why a round nose bullet loses it's power over a shorter distance is because of the three things working against the bullet while it's in flight.

The shotgun round is just like the pistol except the characteristics are increased (i.e: starts off with more power but drops off earlier).
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

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Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by corvus » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:43 pm

Rifle rounds like the .223 are not always more powerful than the 9mm as you must take range, bullet weight and shape into consideration. Different calibres will do more damage at different ranges.

I agree, but the 5.56 round is proven to be more efficient at peircing ballistic plates than the 9mm. In addition to that range and accuracy over distances of over 10yrds, the 5.56 wins again.
When a sniper takes a shot, there are countless variables to consider before squeezing the trigger --- wind speed, wind direction, range, target movement, mirage, light source, temperature, barometric pressure, and that's just the beginning.

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Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:45 am

There's no argument on the amour piercing capability.

But I can assure you that it is very possible for an operator to make hits 200 yards away as Gabe Suarez says here.

If you have an sub gun like an MP5 then it is even easier with the added stability of a buttstock.
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

Dramatikk

Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Dramatikk » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:49 pm

Just for fun. The history of the mp5(Originally called the mp55), just a short summary.



Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

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Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Jack » Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:38 am

I have fired thousands and thousands of rounds through MP5's. Including MP5A2's, MP5SD's and MP5Ks. I am also an instructor on this weapon system.

The difference between handling an MP5 vs most other weapon systems is like the difference between driving a high end sports car vs a pickup truck. Whether your talking about reloads or shooting, the gun just preforms smoothly, is very reliable and fells good.

With that said, the gun is slowly getting dropped from teams and will eventually not be found in police or military armories. I'm sure some will keep an SD around for taking out lights and dogs but that's about it. To bad. Nice gun.

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Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Ryan » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:09 am

What's it getting dropped for? The MP7?
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Dramatikk

Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Dramatikk » Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:07 pm

Ryan wrote:What's it getting dropped for? The MP7?
I believe so, Ryan.

Or for a weapon with bullpup design ... :lol:

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)
Last edited by Dramatikk on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Ryan » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:26 am

A lot of units are using the MP7 now:
Image
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Dramatikk

Re: Why is the MP5 a popular choice for CT teams?

Post by Dramatikk » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:42 am

Why using the HK MP7 (PDW)? I mean, look at the caliber it's using ... a 4.6mm round ... That bullet must have a weight of perhaps 20-30 grains. With so little "punch", you have to shoot the threat so many times that the threat will not survive. This because this bullet got very little "Stun/ Knock Down Power" ... :o

Some thruth in what I just wrote?

Whats your guys angle on this weapon?

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

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