Knowing the Enemy

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Ryan
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Knowing the Enemy

Post by Ryan » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:36 am

What do you think of the mindset behind "To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy"?

An example here:


How do you really understand such a mindset?

Reference:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -next.html
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

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"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
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tacticalguy
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Re: Knowing the Enemy

Post by tacticalguy » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:14 am

Self-radicalization for a good cause? To get inside the movement? That's one way, I suppose.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
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Ryan
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Re: Knowing the Enemy

Post by Ryan » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:25 pm

Nope, I meant more 'understanding' the mindset. For example during the initial to mid-stages of Iraq the media gradually began to pin-the-tail on the face of the enemy stating "formidable" and "uncompromising". The type of enemy that will never surrender, bow down, and will die for their 'cause. The mass-confusion into the way they worked and why they were so adamant for their beliefs confused a lot of people. For example Jihad - in the form of warfare - has to be understood to understand the direct threat level Islamic terrorists as a populace have against you. When you have an enemy that has been forced to join (conscription) and may be morally inferior you have to understand that mindset too - well this, sometimes, is the opposite. Volunteers with persistent reasoning and motivation to do so. Countering this dogma is a multi-faceted issue.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Knowing the Enemy

Post by tacticalguy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:49 pm

Ryan wrote:Nope, I meant more 'understanding' the mindset. For example during the initial to mid-stages of Iraq the media gradually began to pin-the-tail on the face of the enemy stating "formidable" and "uncompromising". The type of enemy that will never surrender, bow down, and will die for their 'cause.
I understand the thrust of your argument.
Ryan wrote:The mass-confusion into the way they worked and why they were so adamant for their beliefs confused a lot of people. For example Jihad - in the form of warfare - has to be understood to understand the direct threat level Islamic terrorists as a populace have against you.
Having seen the result of the Shining Path's actions in Peru specifically, and in general, South America up close, however I tend to disagree. There are MANY that would happily seize power, religion notwithstanding. We've seen their rise many times in the last 100 years. Franco in Spain, Mussolini in Italy, Stalin in Russia and of course, Hitler in Germany. We've seen the fervor in North Korea and Vietnam. The cult of personality is nothing new. What surprised the Western world wasn't that the jihaddists were dedicated to their cause. It was that they were so bold to take the fight off the battlefield and directly to the civilian populace. Communism has always had adherents that have been arrogant in their idea that enough people will see the "truth" of their cause and you will come over to their side. Terror campaigns don't care where you stand. You will flee or you will perish.
Ryan wrote:When you have an enemy that has been forced to join (conscription) and may be morally inferior you have to understand that mindset too - well this, sometimes, is the opposite. Volunteers with persistent reasoning and motivation to do so. Countering this dogma is a multi-faceted issue.
The child soldiers of Laos, Sudan, etc...
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)

Breacher01
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Re: Knowing the Enemy

Post by Breacher01 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:26 am

Within the current geopolitical conditions this thread is very relevant again. western Europe is plagued by self-radicalized Muslims carrying out attacks in the country they reside for a long time or are even residents.
In America there have also been incidents of the same nature, but random shootings are more common there, and always have been.

These individuals are triggered by false interpretations of their religion or beliefs, and are hard to track because they don't operate in cells or networks of terrorists. The total damage they do vary between cases, but every next event scares the general population, even though the risk of a traffic accident or work related injury are far greater.

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Re: Knowing the Enemy

Post by tacticalguy » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:13 am

Breacher01 wrote:Within the current geopolitical conditions this thread is very relevant again. western Europe is plagued by self-radicalized Muslims carrying out attacks in the country they reside for a long time or are even residents.
In America there have also been incidents of the same nature, but random shootings are more common there, and always have been.

These individuals are triggered by false interpretations of their religion or beliefs, and are hard to track because they don't operate in cells or networks of terrorists. The total damage they do vary between cases, but every next event scares the general population, even though the risk of a traffic accident or work related injury are far greater.
Yup. Thus, the true terror doesn't start out as outright panic. It's a sense of unease and suspicion of your neighbor. Here in the U.S. we have people attacking those that look different from a sense of misdirected fear in some cases. In others, it's just giving a "direction" to a generalized sense of dissatisfaction and hatred. This sense of unease will either continue to grow to a bursting point or simply fall back to a simmer if nothing happens, long enough. I've seen this happen before.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)

Breacher01
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Re: Knowing the Enemy

Post by Breacher01 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:02 am

The effect and dangers are very limited, but the polarization between people with different ethnic backgrounds or beliefs become very apparent. In itself making the problems slightly bigger each time.

The Muslims in western Europe rarely openly condemn the actions of their peers. that's just dumb.

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Ryan
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Re: Knowing the Enemy

Post by Ryan » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:13 am

Sorry for the long reply. TLDR: Religion matters in this war. We can talk interpretation all day but there is no objective reality behind these words. We are currently behind on the 'propaganda war.'
Breacher01 wrote:Within the current geopolitical conditions this thread is very relevant again. western Europe is plagued by self-radicalized Muslims carrying out attacks in the country they reside for a long time or are even residents.
In America there have also been incidents of the same nature, but random shootings are more common there, and always have been.

These individuals are triggered by false interpretations of their religion or beliefs, and are hard to track because they don't operate in cells or networks of terrorists. The total damage they do vary between cases, but every next event scares the general population, even though the risk of a traffic accident or work related injury are far greater.
As you speak, I am listening to Dr Sebastian Gorka's "Defeating Jihad: The Winnable War" audiobook. What we lack, he claims, and I agree, is a true Enemy Threat Doctrine Analysis (ETDA). Without it, we peddle counter-terrorism theories that neither counter-terrorism nor look to solve it - but airbrush over it with ill-fitting ideas (e.g. absolute deprivation theory). Stephen Coughlin and Tawfik Hamid have criticised this element to our national security, too. A little bit about me that most people here do not know: I am British-Australian, I lived in a majority Pakistani Muslim community with Islamists and convicted terrorists, I've read most Holy Books--with particular interest in Islamic theology, and I do enjoy a good banter about Islamism. Our current enemy are neck-deep in the understanding of their own theology and using it against us, and we're knee-deep in it. We have a long way to go and many unused strategies awaiting.

Interpretation is just that--to see something one way rather than another and explain it via your own reasoning. It is entirely subjective, there is no absolutist principle separating the two or reasonable methods in distinction of truth with one over the other. In the case of religious terrorism, this is hardly credible without God, or without the scholarly or clerical class. If God's commandments, from base, have already contradicted that move, then you are between a rock and a hard place. So in regards to that, we have two divides: active and counter-cultural or violent interpretation OR passive and non-violent interpretation. The former often believe that God's word, especially in the violent sections of scripture, trumps all other commands or interpretations--they are either merely human traditions or hypocritical (munafiq) in their practice of Islam. The latter believe that, although Islam has had no 'enlightenment,' that certain texts are of historical, not universal or absolute, terms and some even go so far as saying that practicing them contradicts their belief. Others, usually pseudomoderates, simply ignore or obfuscate both sides of the debate.

When both look to explain their position, there is evidence for each within the framework that is Islam: its Holy Books, its scholarly class, its history, its current practice. For the enemy, weaponizing this is essential. For their Prophet, weaponizing this was essential--including to the survival of the religion against paganism of the Arabian Peninsula, against the Byzantines, against Jewish tribes, and therefore there are many justifications found for what is essentially political violence. Hermeneutical decisions can be found from both competing intrafaith ideologies.

Beheading people or the killing of children and the martyrdom of fighters for the religion? The Invasion of Banu Qurayza stories in the Hadith as one example.
The transcendence to Paradise for a man who raises three orphan girls? The Prophet's sayings, called Sunnah, in the Hadith in a few examples.
This is how complicated the scripture can be. It offers objectionable morality by our standards at one stage, and acceptable morality at the other. When we call them 'moderates' we believe them to be of acceptable, enlightened, standard. This is a big let-down for counter-terrorism. It is subjective.

Therefore what evidence is held by scripture to prevent these practices? That is one question I would ask you and one question I would ask the religious terrorist. The answers you may find are either weak or contradictory from the 'moderate' Muslim community. For example, 5:32, which is a heavily over-used Qur'anic verse in this debate, is easily flawed by 5:33, and doubly flawed by relevant tafsirs of it, especially that of Ibn Kathir. The arguments then come down to historic context, or asbab al-nuzul, and other factors, which are often misdirected and agenda-driven. I ask you to read the Qur'an, to read Bukhari Hadith, to read the Sirat Rasul-Allah or Sealed Nectar, and find in it what religious terrorists do. Within, and depending on your interpretation, is a code for violence against those who disbelieve.

Religion matters in this war, we cannot ignore it. I do not think painting Islam as "nice" will help us win it, neither do I think attacking Islam monolithically as "bad" will help us win it... and as you say, by not openly condemning the actions of coreligionists OR completely denying religious connections, they do harm to their own cause. Neither do I think that solely kinetic action will win it. We're heavily losing the ideological battle, and most do not understand the religious-ideological realm.

Forget reading. Relax and listen. Here's Dr Gorka:
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Breacher01
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Re: Knowing the Enemy

Post by Breacher01 » Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:07 pm

I've added your video to my watch later list, since i can't spend an hour watching it right now.

The problem i think is that WE WESTERNERS are afraid to take the racist path and consider everyone of middle eastern decent a possible target as well as everyone who exhibits Muslim features or behavior.
Of course I'm not so stupid to understand that such actions only cause more friction, and possibly more radicalization from the inside. Another problem is that a Muslim/Jihadi is very hard to spot once they are adjusted to living in the west or even born here.

Not every one of middle eastern decent practices Islam, Those who do aren't all terrorists. Some western people do practice radical Islam. Its impossible to detect and take every radicalized Muslim terrorist out, especially with the nice well behaved Muslims not feeling very threatened in their existence. Therefore the problem is to difficult take take on with success without exterminating both all Muslims, and everyone of middle eastern decent.

That would be all-out war at a larger scale then all thee previous crusades combined, Genocide at an extreme level, and massive losses on both sides.

At least, that's the only fool proof option I can think of. I wonder what religion will be left standing at the end... Its a terrible thought. I'd rather take a few casualties here and there, and trow a bomb at IS every now and then.

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Re: Knowing the Enemy

Post by Ryan » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:53 am

Breacher01 wrote:The problem i think is that WE WESTERNERS are afraid to take the racist path and consider everyone of middle eastern decent a possible target as well as everyone who exhibits Muslim features or behavior. Of course I'm not so stupid to understand that such actions only cause more friction, and possibly more radicalization from the inside. Another problem is that a Muslim/Jihadi is very hard to spot once they are adjusted to living in the west or even born here.

Not every one of middle eastern decent practices Islam, Those who do aren't all terrorists. Some western people do practice radical Islam. Its impossible to detect and take every radicalized Muslim terrorist out, especially with the nice well behaved Muslims not feeling very threatened in their existence. Therefore the problem is to difficult take take on with success without exterminating both all Muslims, and everyone of middle eastern decent.

That would be all-out war at a larger scale then all thee previous crusades combined, Genocide at an extreme level, and massive losses on both sides.

At least, that's the only fool proof option I can think of. I wonder what religion will be left standing at the end... Its a terrible thought. I'd rather take a few casualties here and there, and trow a bomb at IS every now and then.
The political environment right now is the problem. The "racism" argument is such a fallacy but once it's played, it creates a seed of doubt in your arguments - no matter how strong. Yes there are certainly people who want to fight Muslims instead of Islamism, they want to fight people generally for religion rather than solve anything. Some of the 'radicals' I met had similar views--they saw British culture as impure, immoral and disgusting. Drinking, gambling, sex before marriage were all seen as sins. The real fight is against the ideology that says this is true, and the dogma that promotes it in secular society. Dr Gorka calls this secularization. Promoting secularism within Islamic culture, it's like we have to push a reformation for themselves.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Breacher01
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Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:42 pm

Re: Knowing the Enemy

Post by Breacher01 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:08 pm

Over here we have about 25% people of 1st and 2nd generation north african and middle eastern migrant workers, I don't know the exact word for it. In a time when my country was doing so well economical, and there was so little unemployment people didn't want to do unschooled work they were asked to come and work here for 5 years. Obviously they stayed.

Anyway, this group of people calls anything they don't like racism by default. even when it has nothing to do with their ethnicity, like being arrested for shoplifting or something. the store personnel, security, officers involved and every one who happens to witness their arresting, all racist nazi's... It's very annoying.

When I did contract work over there they were accommodating our drinking etc. gladly, as long as they could make money off it. Muslims themselves may not drink(in public), but they also have some strange ways of releasing stress... I'll leave that to your imaginations.

The strange thing about the whole terrorism trouble is that there isn't much of a movement of Muslims speaking out against the actions of IS and the few misguided individuals. If there are it's not reaching me.

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Re: Knowing the Enemy

Post by Ryan » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:14 am

They're not that active on the streets. The Ahmadiyya community can be, to a degree, but in small numbers. There have been books by the scholarly class on ISIS and refuting their claims such as "A Letter to Baghdadi" and things like that. But if you take a look at these sources and counter-arguments, you will find that they are pretty weak most of the time. It's a sad shame. They're trying to defend a system that lead to violence in its first generation of being born, by stating that the violence cannot be replicated simply because time has gone by. The historic context argument is weak against Islamists. And this is the only real argument I have came across that didn't jump a thousand hurdles to get to.

And you're right, the racism-by-default claims are ridiculous. They're politically-skewed. It's an easy claim to make even without the evidence. It soon leads to the police brutality question and the systematic discrimination questions which just puts more pressure on Law Enforcement. It's an easy go-to-card for some people who realize they got themselves neck-deep in shit.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Breacher01
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Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:42 pm

Re: Knowing the Enemy

Post by Breacher01 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:37 am

My Country is very multi-ethnic, and there is one group who almost always calls everything racism. if I push their cart a little to the side in a busy supermarket they call me a racist if they are fluent enough in my native language to think they can handle a very simple discussion. No other ethnic group does this every time, only when LE or parking officers(whats the English word?) or a business owner confronts them, and even then they might just be right. It's really confined to a single ethnicity.

Other people of another country based on the same beliefs are more often glad they are allowed to permanently live here and use the racist cart sometimes when they feel threatened and may not be very fluent in our language.

Detecting "home-grow" "lone-wolf" type terrorists who are born here, and sometimes have our passport or in some cases both are extremely hard to detect because as i mentioned have few/no ties to know extremists, or foreign organizations. Political debate here has gone so far as to discuss if Islamism is a religion, or an ideology, because discrimination against a religion is against the laws our nation was founded on.

The results over here are very limited so far, but every terrorist threat from foreign countries intelligence and or domestic drunks calling the emergency services with some type of threat has taken out a chunk of our funding from January 1 until now has big as we had to start with in 2002.

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