celox or quikclot?

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perfectskin69
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celox or quikclot?

Post by perfectskin69 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:52 pm

hello,which is better for duty use?celox or quikclot??they have same price and same use but i heard that celox increases the temprature of the trauma is it true??




EDIT: Rye editted to fix youtube links. You put the end of the link in, not the full URL. For instance after the 'watch?v=' part put the numbers that follow.

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Ryan
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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by Ryan » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:21 am

What you mean? Cause exothermic reactions? I've heard that said about Celox a few times but not confirmed.

Pretty much both work to do the same purpose, almost exactly the same. Don't go too technical.
What's easier to apply? Go with that. :)

Think about it: Gun shot wound, knife wound, multiple wounds, burns, polytrauma. You need something that can get put on quick, on multiple areas, and virtually and untechnically ( :P ) do the same job (overall goal).




It can turn into a medical version of 9mm vs .45ACP on some forums. 8)

Ip-dip-doo... Celox!
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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by perfectskin69 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:44 pm

i don't really understand what they mean with increase of trauma temp cause i'm not a doctor but it scares me and then quicklt i've seen it for sale in athletic sites,all ''tactical'' sites sell celox,i agree with you it's the same thing with different names but here in greece if i apply it to my teamate and this thing do him a damage i'll have problems!!even if i do it for good reason to save o life.so is it ok to use it in a severe trauma??do you recommend one of this 2 ''dusts''??does anayone has personal exp??thanks!!

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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by Ryan » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:39 am

They say it can cause 3rd degree burns, I'm not confirming anything. You should really contact the manufacturers and conduct the 10% rule, shove out 90% of the shit they feed you and decipher that good 10%. :P Or buy both and read all the instructions that come with them then decide... there are lots of precautions when using products like these.

I think you can mitigate the risk by looking up local and national law in reference to this topic. I'm sure if it was severe trauma and a product that was recommended to do the job at hand that it would hold up in a court of law. Think about it: 3rd degree burn or bleed to death, more complications post-incident or simply death at the incident. But what product mitigates this risk? Should you use that? That's their defence. :shock: If it can stop femoral artery bleeds, it's doing the job of stopping bleeding... if has further complications with that product such as exothermic reactions then think of the precautions and pre-plan. Carry extra saline and other equipment to flush it out and get rid of it if it isn't working, then have a secondary back-up to that. Like a breacher with a back-up breaching plan, a medic must always have a back-up plan... the human body is more unpredictable than anything else on this planet.

Source: http://edcforums.com/showthread.php/541 ... s-Quikclot
I use sources no matter what with medical discussions. It's too over-the-top to just go with opinion. :twisted:


Temperature. Temperature controls the rate of chemical and enzymatic processes occurring within the wound and the metabolism of cells and tissue engaged in the repair process. Frequent dressing changes or wound cleansing with room temperature solutions may reduce wound temperature, often requiring several hours for recovery to physiological levels. Thus, wound dressings that promote a “cooling” effect may not support wound repair.

Source: http://mediligence.com/blog/2010/05/26/ ... d-healing/
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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by perfectskin69 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:49 pm

thanks very interesting links,that fish allergy that may create celox put me in thoughts but i don't think that i 'll have a problem,however i think i'll go for the celox ''dust'' for self treatment,the strange thing is that here in my country no pharmacy ever heard of celox or Quikclot! :?: :?: :shock: :shock:

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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by Ryan » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:14 am

Pharmacists.... :P

Contact the police or military?
We have so many SWAT, LE members I'm surprised they haven't chipped in.
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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by perfectskin69 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:54 pm

i'm in LE and if it wasn't the internet i would never knew that exist such things as celox!!!here in greece every one buy a glock 9mm or 45 cal and they are ready for everything ''as they say'' they don't need anything else and the don't care if there is something that may save a life!!!thanks for your help i will order from ebay 2 celox of 15gr.
is it ok 15gr or should i go for 35???they have expiration date??
thanks again,Nick!!!

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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by Ryan » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:30 am

Apparently all Celox expires in 3 years. Apparently on this site also "Celox does not burn"--but QuickClot does. 10% Rule Time, they both may burn and who knows without non-bias scientific research without funding from the manufacturers.

Source: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=784940

Amount is up to you. :P Likelihood, storage, carryable weight, guesstimation or research of common wounds and therefore amount applicable.
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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by Ryan » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:14 pm

Here's a good read: http://board.gearsoc.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=8382.

"I did choose none...I am not trained to use haemostatic agents and
friends who practice medicine suggested me not to use them until I get proper training.If you check in the thread there are also people suggesting the same.

I use israeli trauma gauzes or common sterilized gauzes from drug stores."
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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by badger » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:42 pm

"I heard bad stories" wau, what a significant opinion. I read lucky stories about celox and quikclot. The most important rule is you can use it only on life treathaning huge wounds,don't use it on face. We have quikclot officially in our medkit,celox have personally, celox applicator as well. Important is after use hems let the pack with victim lets doctors want what to do.
Edit: always use the gloves.

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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by Ryan » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:43 am

badger wrote:always use the gloves.
:)

Thanks for that badger. With an open wound, it opens almost every avenue of transmission. Think about the small stuff (gloves, hygiene) before the big stuff. Spot on.
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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by Paulo » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:47 am

Good Day, I am new to the site but when I read this I had to chime in. I would not use either of the hemostatics mentioned. The Quick Clot ACS was not effective in the animal model test. It rarely controlled bleeding. The ACS generates heat but not enough to burn you as the previous version did. When they changed to the Advanced Combat Sponge the efficacy decreased also. The celox works well but there is some studies that show the they flakes were getting into the blood stream and causing more problems. Any product that is a granule or a flake has the potential to have this result. The other problem was when you pour the product on the wound it was hard to get the product to the source of the bleeding. The US military does not use any granular products any more for that reason. The products of choice are gauze type that pack into the wound. Quick Clot Combat Gauze is the one that is currently recommended by the Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care. This Gauze has no exothermic reaction and controls bleeding fast all you have to do is pack it aggressively to the point of bleeding. There are new gauze type products on the market such as ChitoGauze that work similar to the Combat Gauze. If you do not have funding regular gauze packed aggressively to the point of the bleeding source with at good pressure dressing works almost as good.

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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by perfectskin69 » Tue May 01, 2012 12:39 pm

Paulo wrote:Good Day, I am new to the site but when I read this I had to chime in. I would not use either of the hemostatics mentioned. The Quick Clot ACS was not effective in the animal model test. It rarely controlled bleeding. The ACS generates heat but not enough to burn you as the previous version did. When they changed to the Advanced Combat Sponge the efficacy decreased also. The celox works well but there is some studies that show the they flakes were getting into the blood stream and causing more problems. Any product that is a granule or a flake has the potential to have this result. The other problem was when you pour the product on the wound it was hard to get the product to the source of the bleeding. The US military does not use any granular products any more for that reason. The products of choice are gauze type that pack into the wound. Quick Clot Combat Gauze is the one that is currently recommended by the Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care. This Gauze has no exothermic reaction and controls bleeding fast all you have to do is pack it aggressively to the point of bleeding. There are new gauze type products on the market such as ChitoGauze that work similar to the Combat Gauze. If you do not have funding regular gauze packed aggressively to the point of the bleeding source with at good pressure dressing works almost as good.
hi again i check th quiclot gauze and i want to ask what;s th deference between the gauze for LE and the military,i'm talking for quiclot gauze.and as i saw on video i think tah the gauze is harder to use cause the video shows that you have to find the bleeding point and i don't have medical knowledge!!!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3TUKKx0cus[/youtube]

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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by Paulo » Sun May 13, 2012 11:21 pm

There is no difference between the two Combat Gauze products other than the packaging. The thing to remember is to pack toward the bone. Large Arteries are close to the bone. The goal is peal the product out of package (it is fan folded so this is easy) push the product into the wound with fingers, pack the cavity tightly until it is filled with gauze, pile gauze and apply pressure for three minutes. those are the P's of wound packing. After the wound is packed apply a pressure dressing. http://youtu.be/EOhmezRx-E8

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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by Ryan » Fri May 25, 2012 6:08 am

Great post Paulo.

Yes, spot on. For wound healing later on in the victims life they will begin to leave a small gap instead of a 'full-pack' to promote healing beneath the wound once those priority bleeding areas have been controlled - you must remember that wounds heal from below, inside first. That alone takes multiple days to weeks.

The truth about most of this is to simply find a product that you believe fits your criterea and use it when the situation comes. Pre-testing and questioning is great, so thanks for sticking with this topic. The 'using' part is also very as I have discussed. Until real medical technology advances are seen and/or meet your very probable daily events then use the basics and recommended products (Gauze basically, it can do the job and manage itself, soaking and preventing dramatic blood loss).

This is the most important stage: Choice. Choice before the action. So network on it and if you find some other opinions, please state them here. :)

It is important for the time-critical life-saving stages of the event. Proper post-event action is mandatory, try your best to stabilize and leave the rest to the Medical Team. The better you and the product does at preventing loss and complications the easier it is for the Surgeon but at the end of the day Surgeons can do wonders and they have their preferences, which you'd be advised on if required, but when they get to that point they are in safe hands.

I'd say talk to Doctor, Surgeon, Specialised Paramedic within wounds, Tactical Team Medic because you are specifically talking wounds and tactical trauma injuries. A woundologist or wound ballistics expert (Such as Dr Gary K. Roberts - you can talk to him at m4carbine.net).

The initial event and close post-event happenings really fluctuate that survival score.

A small tip -- When you get towards the end of rolling, putting on the bandage then tear it in the middle - quite a long tear so you can wrap it around the wound and tie it instead of tucking it in, taping it and what not.

But speaking of which, I am doing my Operating Theatre rotation. We deal with a mixture of wounds - most operations depending on type are microscopic type incisions (arthroscopy with partial meniscus repair, etc). They use a special gauze with a radioactive dye linked in-between incase some is left or literally lost within the patient. It can show up on X-Ray! How cool is that. Most are sutured, dressed, bandaged and taped.

The wounds you discuss are potentially big, potentially uncontrollable, bleeding everywhere, painful, ugly. Those kind of situations demand more from the individual and the individuals products.
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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by Ryan » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:42 am

Heard of HemCon? Currently used in British Army (BA) - controls bleeding with a hemostatic agent.

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_docs ... 072486.pdf

All granular powders got discontinued, and replaced by combat gauzes of various natures such as Quikclot combat gauze, HemCon as above. "Too messy."
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Re: celox or quikclot?

Post by tacticalguy » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:48 am

I was just leaving the Army when Quikclot had come out. Never had an opportunity to use it. Some of the studies I've seen have been very supportive of it. I know that some of the remote ambulance services in the western US have tried it.
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