Hand 2 hand

Forum to discuss hand to hand combat.

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Hand 2 hand

Post by Admin » Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:48 am

Almost every entry team has some kind op hand to hand system, like Judo, Kravmaga and so on.

what is yours? What makes it better compared to other systems?

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Post by Jack » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:45 am

I am assuming that we are talking about real entries?

The thing about doing entries is that you almost always use Violence of Action. The whole point of SWAT is to totally overwhelm the suspects and not give them much of a chance or any time to think.

Most of the time when you do an entry there are people in the house and most of the time they are completely overwhelmed and don't intend to fight at all. However often you give them commands and they don't respond because they have the deer in the headlights look and are having trouble taking all of this new information in. One minute they were sitting on their couch and eating chips and the next moment a flash bang went of between them and the TV and ninjas are running through their house screaming at them.

The Hand to Hand tactics most needed are tactics to take those people into custody. The tactic we most use is a simple hand snap down. This is used on somebody who is not responding to your verbal commands to get down, but is not resisting either. You simply keep your trigger hand on your long or short gun (finger off the trigger) and use your support hand to grab their wrist and then pull their wrist to the floor. This breaks their balance and they bend forward. Once they are forward and off balance you pull the wrist and back up a little bit. When somebody is not resisting, this places them onto their stomach quickly and smoothly without hurting them. You then secure your weapon, place their arm behind their back and move into handcuff. It is like a wrestling snap down done on the wrist.

This technique would not work very well if they didn't want to go to the ground, but most of them do without resisting at all. You can use this technique if they have their hands up or down. It also works weather they are standing or sitting in a chair. There are other techniques but this is the one that gets used most often.

Andy

Post by Andy » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:28 am

When dealing with suspects that don't respond to orders like “police - get down” I have heard that the SPEAR system is the most used. Best system for CQB in confirmed space. Is this true ore?

Please see the link: http://www.tonyblauer.com/

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Post by Jack » Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:01 am

It would be hard to say what would be the best system. Although I have looked into the SPEAR system a little bit and it seems like a good one. Martial arts is a broad subject with a lot of variables.

I used to compete in Tae Kwon Do and can tell you that it is a poor choice for SWAT. First of all when you put all of that gear on it totally throws of your balance, so forget all of the kicking stuff. You do need a good thrust kick for busting open doors, and you might get away with a low round house on a suspects legs but other than that forget it.

You also have to remember that all of that gear will help protect you if someone punches or kicks at you. The suspect dose not have too man targets that he can strike at. Simple techniques are best. Simple strikes and throws.

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Post by Harry Miste » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:59 am

I don't have a definitive hand to hand combat system. Rather, I just remember what I see from media or other sources and use the fighting techniques I saw if I ever needed to. It's worked so far.
I'm not actually part of a team that requires to do this sort of thing in real life. But I know the tactics anyway.

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Post by Jack » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:15 am

In what way has it worked?

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Post by jcheng14 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:17 am

Andy wrote:I have heard that the SPEAR system is the most used. Best system for CQB in confirmed space.
Dunno if its the best, WC was designed for use in enclosed areas / hit and run warfare.

I think pretty much anything that is designed for grappling / takedowns will be effective enough for most SWAT units. Military units learn combatives, or in general already have an outlined hand to hand course.

so things that would probably work would include judo, akaido, and TC. Silat isnt a bad choice either. and obviously KM, JKD or KFM would work.
Harry Miste wrote:I don't have a definitive hand to hand combat system. Rather, I just remember what I see from media or other sources and use the fighting techniques I saw if I ever needed to. It's worked so far.
I'd be wary of learning, training from media sources. Movies obviously are unrealistic, and even MMA fighting (UFC / ELITE FC / PRIDE) is not practical for real life.

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Post by Harry Miste » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:18 am

The above sources are the exceptions. Usually, it's documentaries on special forces units.
I'm not actually part of a team that requires to do this sort of thing in real life. But I know the tactics anyway.

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Post by Jack » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:56 am

A good place to start if you are interested in the spear system.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excerci ... Combatives

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Post by Jack » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:49 am

A friend of mine went to this training. I was scheduled to go, but it didn't work out. Good stuff though.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl= ... itesearch=

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Post by dodeck » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:11 pm

Jake wrote:A friend of mine went to this training. I was scheduled to go, but it didn't work out. Good stuff though.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl= ... itesearch=
Hello,

Great stuff but this are not only US Forces. Few Poles took part as well.
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Post by jcheng14 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:14 am

note: KFM works well in close quarters unarmed combat.
However, it will not work well for law enforcement type or military type encounters. KM will probably work better / best. Although silat as taught by guru maul is highly effective too as evidenced by his training of special military units.

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Hand to Hand

Post by Andy152R » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:17 am

We used a combo of Muai Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It seemed to work well, and even though body armor and gear can be cumbersome, it still works. Most of the routines heavily involved kicks and knee strikes, due to the hands being occupied by your primary weapon. A lot of the BJJ routines involved full gear of the defender, while the attacker had no gear (except safety gear) of course, detaining a subject was always an issue, so we had one person put his primary in a belt retainer and do the hand work while others held security on him with a subject. since most of the time the detainee would try to force you to the ground, the BJJ was helpful. some of the instructors that trained us through one of my courses also showed us some takedowns in our off time that came from the russian Sambo. Obviously, Non lethal weapons such as batons and OC were always first choice, but when you have a calm subject who suddenly realizes he's really getting detained, you may not have the time/room to utilize those. Muzzle strikes work extremely well too.
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Post by Jack » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:12 am

You are right Andy, their is often no time to deploy sprays, batons or Tasers.

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Post by Buzzsaw » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:13 pm

I've been practicing Shorin-ryu Karate for 10 years now, and will say that it's basic moves work well with or without gear on. Since it is mostly based around quick strikes and grapples like arm, shoulder, and wrist locks it can be used effectively in many situations.
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Post by Andy152R » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:14 am

i'll have to check that out, sounds like it's worth a look. thanks
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Post by Jack » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:14 pm

A simple front thrust kick works well to stop somebodies forward momentum and keep them off of you long enough to sling your long gun and go hands on.

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Post by Gkarras » Mon May 25, 2009 1:05 am

Just a couple of question have they ever taught you guys how to use knives or disarm knives?
Is low acrobatics such as rolling or sliding to the other side of a table important or did they even teach you?

I was just asking cause I've done many years of kickboxing,muyai thai,judo-aikido and they taught us to roll and do some acrobatics but is this any important in a real life intervention?I mean maybe rolling to dodge bullets but i'm not sure were in the matrix!

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Post by Jack » Fri May 29, 2009 2:38 am

I did a lot of rolls in Hapkido and of course Judo and Jujitsu. But the reason for all the rolls was to protect you if you were thrown, not so you could do SWAT rolls during fights.

Ninjitsu teaches rolls to avoid things like strikes or stabs. Whatever makes them feel special I guess. I suggest watching American Ninja for training tips if this is your thing.

The answer is no. You don't go running around doing jumps and rolls during fights and on operations. First of all it's probably not going to do you any good, he might miss with the first shot, but he will probably hit you with the second, third, fourth and so on. Secondly when you put even a portion of your gear on you can hardly bend over, let alone roll around. Besides everything else you stand a good chance of jumping and rolling in front of another good guy and receiving friendly fire.

Never say never but, no. I can't understand why one of your many instructors wouldn't have explained this to you after years of training?

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Knives and disarming them

Post by Andy152R » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:31 pm

There are a few techniques they taught us. Some of them actually involved a tomahawk, and worked like Escrima (phillipino), using the shaft of the Hawk to disarm the individual. the others involved hooking with the tomahawk's head. Unarmed disarming mostly involved locking the elbow, and blanketing the hand until they dropped the knife. it was unspecific as far as style, but it was effective. Another thing i learned that works well is baton strikes to the forearms. Most often, if you hit the inner forearm, they don't have the strength to hold the knife.
Andy Reid
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Independence Police Department
Independence Kansas
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