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Dealing with a combative party who is holding up the team.

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:58 am
by Jack
Alright here is the scenario. You are at the front of the stack. You make an initial entry into the residence and their is a unknown combative guy in front of you. This guy is not responding to verbal commands. You attempt to pull him down, push him aside or whatever and he doesn't move. Your whole team is stopped behind you because of this one guy.

My solution. First I try verbal commands as I move up. Once I see he doesn't have a weapon, I place mine on safe and attempt the hand snap down. When I get noncompliance I simply move in for a double leg takedown. This is the quickest way I can think to get this guy out of the way.

The advantages I see is that this is a simple effective technique. I can place the weapon on safe and go for it without touching the suspect prior, or even better, I can start with a stiff arm or a hand snap down. Starting with a stiff arm or a hand snap down is preferable because he may comply without having to resort to the takedown, and it helps me find the range for a good shoot. Any thoughts or ideas?

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:39 am
by Admin
"Get the unknown out of the way ASAP by any means"

Well... if I am blocked by an unknown I will yell GET DOWN while I move to the man. This menes that I am out of the entry. If he isn’t going to the ground by him self and I can see both his hands and no weapon, I will knock him out of balance by sticking my fingers in his eyes and forcing him down, when he is down I place him in a arm lock and draw my weapon again to provide fire support to the rest of the team if needed. The take down and arm lock is made in about 2 seconds. Using krav maga.
I know this is a bit brutal, but if the team goes in he had a chance to surrender.

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:03 am
by Jack
Two problems I see with your idea. Ok, three.

1. Poking somebody in the eye is an too much force to use. You are talking about seriously damaging this person at that point. You might as well shot him in the leg. It is not much more damaging the poking his eye out.

2. This is a very unreliably way to take somebody to the ground. Compared to the double leg takedown, which has very predictable results. This is what I call, "High percentage techniques," and "Low percentage techniques." I'm not saying that the eye poke is not effective. I'm just saying that I don't think it is an effective way to take somebody down.

3. Remember he is not really attacking you, just not complying and is your way. If you poke him in the eye, he will most likely start fighting at that point and possibly go for your weapon and or make it harder for you to get him out of the way.

P.S. Do what works for you and what you think is best.

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:04 am
by jcheng14
All depends on the situation, if it is your team only and you have no follow up teams coming in behind you then stay out of arms reach and clear the rest of your assigned area. Hand Snap, and failing that, arm bar. Pain Compliance measures generally work very well, and even if he attempts to resist, at that point its pretty easy to get him down.

If its not possible to stop for whatever reason (ie. you have to continue clearing the house with no support). Safe the weapon, Jerk him towards you, and hip throw him.

The best option would be to just pass by him outside his reach and let the follow on force deal with him. Obviously, that isnt always possible.

In my mind, shooting is not preferred because you dont wanna get mixed up on the ground. At that point, anything can happen and he has about as much access to your gear as you do. Sure, you probably have the advantage in positioning and training, but for all you know he could be a BJJ expert. I'd trust a retention holster, but not THAT much.

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:42 am
by Admin
Well this was the SOP I used some time ago; I don’t know what is used today. It was very brutal but efficient.
Could you try to describe double leg takedown?

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:03 pm
by Jack
I know that generally shooting is not standard practice. I Also realize that grappling is the last option. Best case scenario, you stiff arm him and move on. Let the guy in the back deal with him. And I have done this many times. The difference in this situation is that you can't get past him. A hip throw is an idea, but I don't think it would be best, because;

You have to reverse directions and pull the guy towards you. Remember you are not just going to have a lot of guy standing right behind you(maybe pushing you forward). Plus there is a good chance the guy will get hung up on your knife/radio/gas mask or whatever, that would keep you from fitting in properly to conduct the throw. As apposed to the double leg, which is easier to fit into.

I agree that the hand snap down/armbar/stiff arm is best. But all of these techniques require the suspected to cooperate to some degree. In this scenario he his not really attacking you, but he is not complying and letting you through. Your main goal is to open the passage for everyone else. Kind of like throwing your self on the barbed wire and letting everyone else go over you.

Admin if you find something that works then stick with it. That technique will not do me any good because I can not do that in police work. I will try and find a good video when I have time and post it.

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:58 pm
by jcheng14
Good point on the having to reverse directions. I've never had to make a police entry, done them in airsoft and i know a little bit of police procedures from studying to be a police officer, so i'm just speculating.

Perhaps a sweep would be better then? I've never done judo so i dont know much about non-shooting takedowns. Only some that i have picked up from here or there.

But I would guess that putting the subject on the floor without having to go to ground yourself would be best.

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:44 am
by Jack
I agree that it would be best. The fact is that it is something that I could most likely accomplish based on my martial arts background. With that said, the double leg is hard to stop, and takes very little time to learn. So you could teach it to non-martial arts team members in a short amount of time, with a high percentage of success. Or at least that is what I'm thinking.

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:19 am
by jcheng14
It was my understanding that all SWAT teams were taken from the police. And It was also my understanding that all police officers received basic hand to hand instruction. So if they know basics, it shouldnt be too hard to teach them additional takedowns.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:07 pm
by Jack
Sounds good on paper. The problem is that cops learn various systems of defensive tactics in the Academy. Most of these systems only teach the cops how not to hurt the bad guy. They don't generally teach them a lot about really defending themselves. Rarely is there any follow up training in defensive tactics after they are out of the academy. So by the time the cops get on a SWAT Team, several years after the academy, most are not up to speed, and never were. A lot of SWAT guys are aggressive people and have used their own time to learn, boxing, wrestling or whatever. But many don't seek out this training on their own.

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:34 am
by jcheng14
I would assume however, that applicants for CQC type assault teams are interested in this sort of field. They likely would have kept up with their instruction and possibly worked with other officers during off duty time.

In any event, my friend is currently taking BJJ and MMA classes. He's asked me to work with him since I am passable in several arts myself and fairly proficient in boxing. Maybe I can tell him the situation and see what he comes up with. (yea, and he will soon be in the Army. ROTC currently)

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:12 pm
by Admin
will there soon be a detailed description of: The double leg takedown

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:35 am
by jcheng14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfnsvnNMqsQ


without rules, a double leg takedown isnt hard to stop because you can just come down on the back of the neck.

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:27 pm
by birddog
Why not do what we did....TASER the individual after he/she has been ordered/warned to stand down ?

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:54 pm
by KJ
but that would be to much force if that is not needed then you don't use it. you are only supposed to use that when someone is putting you in a situation like running at you or threatening you or will not calm down those kind of things. Know on the double leg take down that to me is not good either just because that when you go for his legs you have just gave him access to most of your gear and a criminal will use what he can against you.

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:14 pm
by Admin
Nice KJ I like the way you think

The key to unarmed combat is control

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:39 am
by Jack
When somebody is not following commands and they are forcing the whole team to stay in a fatal funnel, they are putting you at risk!

Re: Dealing with a combative party who is holding up the tea

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:58 pm
by kUsling
Jake wrote:Alright here is the scenario. You are at the front of the stack. You make an initial entry into the residence and their is a unknown combative guy in front of you. This guy is not responding to verbal commands. You attempt to pull him down, push him aside or whatever and he doesn't move. Your whole team is stopped behind you because of this one guy.

My solution. First I try verbal commands as I move up. Once I see he doesn't have a weapon, I place mine on safe and attempt the hand snap down. When I get noncompliance I simply move in for a double leg takedown. This is the quickest way I can think to get this guy out of the way.

The advantages I see is that this is a simple effective technique. I can place the weapon on safe and go for it without touching the suspect prior, or even better, I can start with a stiff arm or a hand snap down. Starting with a stiff arm or a hand snap down is preferable because he may comply without having to resort to the takedown, and it helps me find the range for a good shoot. Any thoughts or ideas?
I think there is a couple of things you can do depending on the situation, but I think that the best thing to do is to have a standard solution that works amost always and then something for backup, preferably something you can do when the first thing didn't work out.

As I told you before I am not proficent in CQB however takedowns and other things should always be as quick and bulletproof as it ever could be whether or not you in a CQB situation.

I train and instruct Krav Maga. We have picked up few things from other systems like Senshido (www.senshido.com) and S.P.E.A.R (blauertactical.com) and Defendo (www.defendo.com).

If you move forward with verbal commands and the person is non complient, I would always move in with the S.P.E.A.R tactics (at least one arm raised, going for center mass with the forearm) which looks non-agressive and a could base stance for either attacking, defending or pushing people away, verything with your forearm and reflexivly. If he attack I could reflexive block. If he dives for the legs I can intercept with my forearms, also reflexivly. If lets say he's an innocent bystander and we have to get through and he doesn't move I could use the S.P.E.A.R forearm and push/hit him away... whatever the entry it's always the same. It is how you end up that differs.

If nothing happens I am in a clinch-situation with my forearm diagonally across his chest. Either way it is pretty much the same situation as if he dove for my legs or tried to hit me.

I grab his neck either with the hand which is across the chest or both hands round his neck (like thai-clinch) and pull him down towards me. If he resists I could knee-attack him in his crouch or stomach and try again. I think this technique is shown on one of the videoclips on this site from the History-channel...

It sounds pretty advanced and non-standard in text (many different things to do) but it is pretty simple. Go in with you forearms first, stun him if you must. Grab his neck either way. Drag down. If it doesn't work, attack his groin and try again.

If that fails I could always and would go for the face (eyes, nose etc) and attack. Not gouging his eyes out but constantly and pretty hard so he has to focus on his face while I could take him down with a nose-hook (hard pressure on the nose while grabbning his arm and body so he not can push away from me.) If I must I sweep his leg while pushing his nose...

This also sounds pretty advanced in text but I assure you it is simple...

The S.P.E.A.R moving in and reflexive blocking:
http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=--74CtXS6Y4

Going for the face while not hurting the guy (if you don't want to)
http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjO5ZC6Uog

Nose-hooking at 2.17 (the thing in the guys face :-) , works from every angle as long as you grab the guy's nose AND body)
http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=EJuuxBhC4 ... 1&index=35


My two cents...

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:33 am
by Jack
Yes. I like the SPEAR System. I find myself using it more and more these days.

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:37 am
by Jack
The Taser is OK for some situations, and certain types of entries. But on a fast moving entry a good deal of time would be wasted in attempting to deploy it.

I just don't personally like transitioning to less lethal weapons on entries.