Dealing with a combative party who is holding up the team.

Forum to discuss hand to hand combat.

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kUsling
Law Enforcment
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Post by kUsling » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:35 pm

Jake wrote:Yes. I like the SPEAR System. I find myself using it more and more these days.
So do I... combined with "the Shield" it is real effective.

In Dynamic Combat it looks like this:
http://www.dynamiccombat.com/indexfl.html

How we use it were I train is as a a last resort of defence in close quarters, you protect the head by grabbing your upper part of the head and keeping you elbows in front of your face and close together, crashing in in the opponent then open up and attack... works real god as a last resort and can also be used as a "bridge to your next weapon".

Dramatikk

Re:

Post by Dramatikk » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:09 pm

Admin wrote:"Get the unknown out of the way ASAP by any means"

Well... if I am blocked by an unknown I will yell GET DOWN while I move to the man. This menes that I am out of the entry. If he isn’t going to the ground by him self and I can see both his hands and no weapon, I will knock him out of balance by sticking my fingers in his eyes and forcing him down, when he is down I place him in a arm lock and draw my weapon again to provide fire support to the rest of the team if needed. The take down and arm lock is made in about 2 seconds. Using krav maga.
I know this is a bit brutal, but if the team goes in he had a chance to surrender.
Instead of poking someone's eyes out, how about using a hammer fist punch towards the bridge of the nose of the threat? His/ her eyes will tear up and will not be able see very well, but you risk breakng his/ her nose with the hammer fist ... Any thoughts?

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

Itsahak
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Re:

Post by Itsahak » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:21 pm

Jack wrote:Yes. I like the SPEAR System. I find myself using it more and more these days.

This! I've done several entries, and had several people that didn't/wouldn't comply. Sometimes it's from just not wanting to comply, sometimes its because all of the sudden stimuli coming at them locks them up. I use the SPEAR to drive them back, and if I need to I deal with them, if not I go on and let the next guy do it. I've seen an entire SWAT team of 8 guys use the 1/2 SPEAR on a guy in a hall way. By the time the medic snatched him at the end of the line and cuffed him. he was not only compliant but beat to hell with no visible marks.

I've been a SPEAR level one coach for about 4 years now, as well as a Muay Thai, MMA, and Royce Gracie JJ coach since the 90's. The SPEAR is the best entry technique I've used to date...
Wil
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tacticalguy
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Re: Dealing with a combative party who is holding up the tea

Post by tacticalguy » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:36 pm

Hmmm... Good scenario and question! Some good answers, too. My answer is predicated on the mission. Is this a LE op? Or a military op? If it's LE, are we doing warrant service, narc, HR? If it's military, same questions. 5 or 6 man stack? If it's LE, I'd consider having a LTL option available in the middle of the stack, ready to go with a Power Punch in the .12gauge. Verbal commands given once, twice, third time; stack opens up and LTL option used so that my team can return to mission. Team safety is PARAMOUNT. Surprise, speed and violence of action. If you're not using the last two all the way through the op, the first one won't matter.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)

Puddlepirate309
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Re: Dealing with a combative party who is holding up the tea

Post by Puddlepirate309 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:30 pm

Like the poster above said, the situation is going to dictate. What is the objective? How much of risk is he presenting not only to your team but to the overall mission?
What are your ROE/Use of Force rules? Is there a deadly threat to anyone if the speed of your assault is impeded?

In an LE warrant service scenario, is this the guy you are looking for? If so, order him to the ground with consequences and if he doesn't go, hold cover on him while you wait for less lethal. On the other end, in a military WMD scenario anyone preventing forward movement of the team toward securing the objective is risking hundreds or thousands of lives, so anyone slowing down the team from securing the weapon is just going to be shot and blown by.

The generic drill I have taught in the past is this; #1 (Point) Gives very aggressive verbal commands while moving towards the subject. This accomplishes two things - it gets his attention and effectively "calls out" the contact to the rest of the team. The subject is actively resisting verbal commands by remaining in the way of your team, so under the Use of Force in most places, strikes, takedowns and some less-lethal (OC/Tasers) are authorized. Transitioning to less lethal takes too long unless you have it ready in the stack - it slows down your momentum and point needs to keep a gun up for lethal threats.

So #1 continues to move on the subject with #2&#3 right on top of him. As soon as he gets close enough, #1 uses a stunning technique (I prefer a muzzle strike to the sternum or palm splash to the face/upper chest) followed by a stiff arm to the near shoulder pocket. The bad guy is either going to pull that side back/be shoved sideways, or push back against the strike. If he pulls back, #1 blows by and covers long. If he pushes toward the strike, grab a handful and pull aggressively towards the team, then blow by and cover long. Now he may try to fight/wrestle, in which case #2 needs to be ready to blow by and pick up point while #3 helps #1 take the subject under control. Last but not not least, the subject may try to grab hold of/control/take #1's weapon, in which case the subject has just made a very bad choice and escalated the situation up to a point where deadly force is authorized.

#2&#3 take control, #3&#4 now become #2&#3 and the stack moves forward. Depending on your ROE and the threat the subject can be hard-pointed (cuffed to a structure like a radiator or pipe), moved into a cleared room and covered (You lose two guys but needed a detainee/casualty collection point anyway) or passed off to the perimeter team.

WHAT you do isn't nearly important as BEING ABLE to do it without holding officer's call in the p-way while you dirt dive it like John Madden.

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