Combat Knives

Forum to discuss hand to hand combat.

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Ryan
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Combat Knives

Post by Ryan » Sun May 29, 2011 2:45 am

Why, when, where, how?

There are many negatives for melee nevermind using knives and similar weaponary but what are the positives, tactics and procedures when using a combat knife?

It is a very basic survival tool and you just have to remember that it's not always aimed at stealth but for self-defence when it's a last resort; say too close to a combatant and you cannot reload or you are jammed. When you have lost your firearm or raising the alarm would be too heavy a cost - this accounts for knives, bayonets, hand-to-hand and whatever else could be used. It was also easily concealed and easily accessable compared with other weaponary.

It is possible to kill, paralyze, and seriously injure. We have projectiles now but they are very similar - sharp objects made to penetrate human flesh and cause as much damage as possible. The only difference now is we shoot them out of a barrel instead of thrusting them into somebody.

It was taught heavily in WW2 and WW1 for getting rid of sentries or within close quarter battle and there are quite a few stories of where it did work - and I agree quite a few where it didn't. They did not teach any techniques that were unproven though.

What thoughts do you guys have? It isn't considered in LE but it is in the military and some close quarter scenarios. In linking it with LE you could swap it around and the knife being used against you.

Image

"Well, that's a great idea. If you're operating single firearm, as most LE/PO's do then a problem with losing the operatability of that is a large risk. No ammunition, a jam, it breaks, it's too close and turns into a grab. You need to learn your anti-grab drills. If you operate with helmets for example learn anti-helmet grab drills. The same goes with transition, or as some like to call it the combatives transition. I think that would be a great combined course with that kind of course content that is very important. Germany's MEK/SEK use co-holsters with a fixed blade and pistol for their transition optionality."
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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Ryan » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:03 am

Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_knife:

General

A combat knife (also commonly called a trench knife, fighting knife, or tactical knife) is a knife designed for military use, specifically for close combat. Since the end of trench warfare, however, most military knives have been primarily designed for utility/tool use (clearing foliage, chopping branches for cover, opening ammunition crates, etc.) rather than for effectiveness in hand-to-hand combat.[1][2]
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Ryan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:20 am

CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Dramatikk

Re: Combat Knives

Post by Dramatikk » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:38 pm

How about throwing-knives? Are they useful in a CQB enviroment?

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Ryan » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:15 am

Dramatikk wrote:How about throwing-knives? Are they useful in a CQB enviroment?
:P Useful as in a general tool you will most probably use, no. But that's probably the same with a knife - but it's a utility tool also so you never know. :D
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Ryan » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:25 am

Pro's:
If you jam, need to reload, transition then you have a back-up back-up to the pistol:- the combat knife.
Very easy and quick to draw:- same so for using one, very fast. It is easily accessible.
If you are in a heavily confined space e.g. tunnel, boat (while boarding) then a knife can be used, a pistol can also be used and both may be drawn together. A knife may be drawn and used faster and more easily in close combat (i.e. with funiture and objects in the way, really close to the enemy who might grab a projectile based weapon and easily control it).
It is silent, compare it to other weapons and you will definitely see advantages in no or minimal noise.
Very useful for certain roles e.g. rappelling or diving or even a medic removing a bullet from a gunshot wound.
Will enhance hand-to-hand and combatives combat techniques:- including drawing, reaction times, understanding and disarming.
Is also a multi-role utility tool and can be used for all kinds of other tasks including cutting away branches, eating, etc.
Can be fixed to a rifle and used as a bayonet:- even with duct tape.
It can deal very fatal blows, more people die from stabbing fatalities than gun shot wounds. Even with body armour, at such a close range it will be used at the eyes, throat, face, head and where ever exposed flesh is.
A knife also carries less risk of a stray round hurting one of your buddies. Ricochets are life threatening, a knife will cease this threat.
All kinds of different versions, some coming with knuckle duster attached which adds an advantage for hand-to-hand.
Folding ones are more compact and fixed can be attached to your gear, e.g. belt and even pistol holster or weapon.
Moral lowering; I'd personally hate to be stabbed rather than shot, and I don't know why! Maybe the fact that you're so close and would stand little to no chance.

Con's:
Extra weight.
Can only be used in very confined spaces therefore limits itself unless you consider throwing knifes:- but again, too risky and unlikely.
Highly unlikely to use BUT more likely depending on situation e.g. you may not use it in Afghanistan with 300m contacts but you might in the Gulf of Aden while boarding pirate ships (http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/def ... -dies.html).
More training to learn and expenses because of this; both time, effort and money.
Last edited by Ryan on Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Jack
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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Jack » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:15 pm

I don't know of a police officer that dose not carry at least one knife. There is just something so reliable about them that you are a wise to have one on you all the time.

I personally carry a benchmade fixed blade tucked behind my magazine pouch. I had someone try and grab my handgun while I was mounted on him during a fight not to long ago. It was fine, but it made me realize if someone got my handgun, I would obviously be very close to them, so a knife would be a great choice. I already carried a folder but I wanted something with a fixed blade and easy to get to. During patrol and foot chases I often don't carry a long gun so the knife is my backup.

I have seen a lot of gunshot victims and a ton of victims of cuttings. In fact a week hardly goes buy that I don't come in contact with one or the other. I once worked five stabbings in one night. Knives are deadly, deadly weapons, if employed with lethal force in mind. So you must study the parts of the body that are good targets for a knife. Attack those and you will have no trouble being effective. Almost every knife victim I have seen has been stabbed by kitchen knives, not expensive combat knives. I'm sure a real combat knife would GREATLY increase the damage.

Although I see a lot of bad knife wounds, often times what people are really doing when the cut some one is trying to cause them pain but not kill. You see a lot of slashes instead of the obviously more effective stab. With that said if I was going to use a knife I would employ it just like a gun, keep going until there is no more threat.

A good reason to practice knife fighting is so you understand how one can be employed against you. Knife takeaways are really good to practice. Although most people learn one or two takeaways that they have little to no chance accomplishing in a real situation, then never even practice them. Live dynamic takeaways must be obtained against a fully resistant opponent using something like a red magic marker.

Remember from the book of five rings, you shouldn't have a favorite weapon and no weapon is better than another. It is all about how and when you employ it.

Dramatikk

Re: Combat Knives

Post by Dramatikk » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:17 pm

I have to agree with Ryan, that I too fear knifes more than I fear handguns when talking about hand to hand combat situations. Knifes are small, completely silent and very deadly. Some times you will not even know the attacker had a knife till you notice all the blood from your shirt ...

When it comes to effective take-away techniques, the US army performed for many years ago a little project conserning defense against knife attacks. The conclusion was that it was in almost every scenario near impossible to survive a massive knife attack from a crazed person.

Furthermore when looking at statistics, you will see that almost all victims from knife attacks have not been stabbed ones, but 70 - 200 times. This meaning you as a victim will experience a rapid fury of thrusts towards your body.

On a side note: I too have been attacked with a knife. This attacker tried to kill me, by cutting up my throat ... I eventually smashed his knifehand into a concreet wall and ran off.

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Ryan » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:00 am

Dramatikk wrote:Furthermore when looking at statistics, you will see that almost all victims from knife attacks have not been stabbed ones, but 70 - 200 times. This meaning you as a victim will experience a rapid fury of thrusts towards your body.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Jack » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:41 pm

As I said, keep cutting and stabbing until there is no more threat.

The bigger the knife the less judo, wrestling and strength you need.

The smaller the knife the more judo, wrestling and strength you might need to be effective.

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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Ryan » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:15 am

You just swing it too, you don't have to aim for precise shots. You just go for it, whatever exposed flesh. Body armour? No problem, we're that close that you've taken it to the head and face, the neck and arms as you tried to disarm it. What about in room enteries, would it be used? e.g. a jam, too close to transition.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Dramatikk

Re: Combat Knives

Post by Dramatikk » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:51 pm

As we have said earlier in this thread, the knife is only a option when nothing else works. It is a emergency solution.

On the other side, if the suspect is to close to me to transit from primary to secondary weapon, I would go for a double leg take-down ... :roll:

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Ryan » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:56 am

:P If you could. Hand-to-hand would be a great choice before combat knife for Law Enforcement.

Image

Good picture of German SEK/MEK with a combat knife as back-up back-up.

Image
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Ryan » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:58 am

Good read: http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/tran ... iptid=4774. So he was carrying a knife as back-up, thinking outside the box.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Dramatikk

Re: Combat Knives

Post by Dramatikk » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:56 pm

Dramatikk wrote:Knifes are small, completely silent and very deadly. Some times you will not even know the attacker had a knife till you notice all the blood from your shirt ...
Found a article that proves my point. :P
I’m a big believer in, "don’t tell me, show me" so in early 1992 I conducted an empirical video research study. I had 85 police officers participate in a scenario based training session where unknown to them, they would be attacked with a knife. The attacker, who was dressed in a combatives suit, was told that during mid contact, they were to pull a knife (that they had concealed), flash it directly at the officer, yell "I’m going to kill you pig," and then engage the officer physically. The results were remarkable:



3/85 saw the knife prior to contact


10/85 realized that they were being stabbed repeatedly during the scenario


72/85 did not realize that they were being assaulted with a knife until the scenario was over, and the officers were advised to look at their uniforms to see the simulated thrusts and slices left behind by the chalked training knives
Source - http://www.lwcbooks.com/articles/anatomy.html

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Ryan » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:39 am

Jeez, you really have to be ready at such close combat. It's amazing how many people underestimate some weaponary in trained hands..
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Ryan » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:36 am

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33752049/Gree ... er-for-War Goes into some amount of detail. Talks also about noise, relating to stealth and some of the bodies natural reactions like a laryngospasm.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Ryan » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:27 pm

Image

Another picture of SEK on the hunt for a cop-killer.

Image
SOTG note the knife sheath, his left hand side, right side of the picture.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Combat Knives

Post by tacticalguy » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:55 am

I like knives. I enjoy using them. I've seen guys that would rather be shot than face a decent sized knife in the hands of someone that appears capable. The combat knife I choose is based on the mission I'm gearing up for. The USMC K-Bar is an excellent all-around knife. I'm very fond of some of the Gerber knives. The Gerber Mark II is an excellent close in dagger for silent sentry removal. For intimidation's sake, you can't beat a 13"-17" kukri carried in the small of the back. I have always kept one under my bed, personally.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
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Re: Combat Knives

Post by Ryan » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:04 am

So you take one out on the road or when geared up in SWAT?
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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