Basic Firearms Safety

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Jack
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Basic Firearms Safety

Post by Jack » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:35 pm

Four firearms safety rules
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUtqZ-xjVo4&feature=fvw

Let's watch these videos and see if you can identify which safety rules were violated. Feel free to post your findings.

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IZlcbJw ... re=related

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aSJgcpqePk

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHHYoT6T ... re=related

4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmGXEkj ... re=related

5. http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/categ ... 77BEm9RC7x

6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPSeuZWpknA

Remember it is easy to locate A mistake in a video. The task is to locate all of the mistakes. The important skill is not only to be able to say the four firearms safety rules, but also to apply them and identify them when they occur.

Remember another rule is to always perform a condition check any time you pick up ANY gun or hand it to somebody else. Never accept a gun without it being checked and then check it again yourself.

http://fliiby.com/file/195811/riwvqmsebq.html

The four firearms safety rules, and the condition check rule are must have skills for anyone in possession of a firearm.

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Post by jimothy_183 » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:09 am

Just before I start watching your posted links heres another one you might like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v-mxvnFLfc

This is the same guy I linked in the gear section.
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Post by jimothy_183 » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:32 am

Just a note, the order of the rules in the first vid is a little different to Cooper's version. And here it is:
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
—Jeff Cooper
While I spot the mistakes I'll be referring to Cooper's version of the 4 basic safety rules.

1. Violated rules 1 and 3. I don't think there's anything else to say...

2. Depending on the action of the gun (DA/SA?) it could be a clear violation of rule 3. And the other could be rule 2 but hats hard to say. Some would say keep it pointed at the suspect till he is fully restrained and others would say otherwise.

3. Clearly rules 2 and 3 have been violated here. :lol:

4. Multiple violations of rule 2 @ 0:11-0:12, 0:28-0:36 and again at 0:51 till the end of the vid.

5. I don't know if I should laugh at this or not but anyways. When dad shot up into the air it was a violation of rules 2 and 4 (I think) and when the kid shot dad...well thats probably numbers 2 and 4. There's no way it was 1 and 3 by the kid since he know what would happen if he pulled the trigger.

6. :lol: @ this vid. All I could see was rule 3 being violated but that's about it I think.
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Post by jimothy_183 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:21 pm

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Post by geryban » Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:21 pm

In the real gunfight (not in the marksmanship):

All gun is loaded. Sure!
Sometimes, in gunfight situations, you have to point your muzzle some things, what you dont want to hit. Its a fact!
When you go into the house (or go up to the truck over there, or every time when you prepare the fast contact) you have to turn your safety to single fire. Or you will die...
Be carefull with the hostige, or the innocent citizens.... The hostages take care of themselfes, be plan to kill everybody (The best rule in Afghanistan)....

Our safety rules (work in the real situations):

Guns have a triple safety sistem:

1., Shooters mind. You can decide what you shoot down or not.
2., Your shooter hand. Your triggerfinger allways off the trigger when you would not use it.
3.,your mechanical safety. Always turn to "FIRE" when you work with the gun. Allways turn to "SAFE" when you carry the gun. Be ready to fight! Simple! Do NOT switching it during the gunfight (in patrol, combat, CQB situations, and all of situations, when you use your gun, and try to save lifes with that... :))
WORK HARD, PLAY HARD!

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Post by Jack » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:09 am

OK greyban, good points and good conversation topic. Pointing your weapon at people during Operations is certainly something that is done and trained on. Despite the rule of, "Don't point the weapon at anything that you are not willing to destroy."

I don't see the big conflict. I have muzzle swept a number of people during my time in Law Enforcement. Many during SWAT operations and a great many more during patrol.

This is only done to check the hands. Once the hands are clear, the muzzle is depressed from the contact ready to the low ready, where the muzzle is dropped just below the suspects feet.

To me it doesn't seem to be a big conflict. Certainly once I have determined the person to be a non threat, my muzzle dose not get pointed at them.

Again. Good points.

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Post by geryban » Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:42 am

correct. No big conflict. so, what i tell, that i think this three points is interesting for the gunfight situations. In the marksmanship you have to watch another rules to.

especialy the unloading methods:
mag out
slide back
slide stop on
see
touch
slide back
use trigger (Not just recock!) to safe direction
safety back
WORK HARD, PLAY HARD!

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Re: Basic Firearms Safety

Post by jimothy_183 » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:26 pm



I think this video brings up a few good points that I would agree with. It's basically a range mindset vs combat mindset.
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Re: Basic Firearms Safety

Post by jimothy_183 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:25 pm

semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

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Re: Basic Firearms Safety

Post by Jack » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:01 pm

I don't see any reason for the finger to be on the trigger. As far as the safety goes, it depends. Consider the following:

1. Skill level of the least tactical member of the team
2. Indoor or outdoor operation
3. how easy is it to operate the safety on your weapon (AK47's and MP5's are very difficult)

A lot of teams leave it up to the individual. I'm generally for leaving the safety on up until you stack on the entry point, then taking it off. Everything is a tradeoff.

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Re: Basic Firearms Safety

Post by Ryan » Fri May 25, 2012 5:39 am

Trigger safety, muzzle sweeping are very much Western and Modern values which are slowly transitioning to the rest of the world.

I try to split myself in this way:
1) I see some value in NOT being COMPLETELY safe and following every single rule. In contact I only care about protecting myself and my buddies by DESTROYING the enemy. I understand the risk and the benefit ratio.
2) I see true value in being absolutely self-independent and focused around these rules, for example I fully understand muzzle sweeping or potentially leading your buddy is a risky maneuver but if I had to shoot past him and risk him being injured to shoot at a threat that would probably kill him then it would be a viable option for me. Therefore the point I am making is it is all about the individual at the tactical level, not the rule because rules don't adapt to you or your situation.
3) Applying them constantly is good for the whole spectrum of firearms users but that may not apply during specific real-life situations which impact life. For training I put my heart and soul into agreeing with it and maintaining a safe environment for tactical teams.

I do not agree with Jeff Cooper's second rule, "Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy" because I feel that it is a negative mental-impact rule -- it is changing the way we look at or perceive muzzle cover, preparatory sweeping or searching and is quite contradictory within itself. Though Jeff Cooper meant well and was conversing generally I believe that people with the above-average ability in the above-average position in a potentially life-threatening situation have the full right to cover possibilities and break a few rules, this may mean covering a window or a civilian who may be acting suspicious. Well, you are not willing to destroy them at that specific time but situations can change in an instance. Dogma is good for the rest of the population only...

Controlled muzzle sweeping is the understandable mentality of only allowing non-life threatening sweeps to the lower extermities or five plus inches above a partners head. But again, it comes back to understanding, operators must understand their ballistics and muzzle-to-sight ratio. :wink:

Some teams or individuals have different philosophies also; for instance, some Delta Force and SEAL members during Black Hawk Down chose purposefully to ignore the trigger safety "rule" during their Close Quarter Battle. They kept the finger on the trigger in situations they felt may lead up to them being in threat. They were ready for any kind of contact, as soon as that muzzle came up rounds went down range. Their philosophy was, "We've been through years of training, millions of dollars of expense, we can handle ourselves AND each other, we can handle this situation better without your petty rules". In those environments, all the discussions and opinions go out the window -- it's your life, you can do what you want with it.

Though I agree with the philosophy they are trying to hit I still believe the trigger safety rule, having your finger off the trigger, is mandatory. It's too easy and instictive of an action to begin to fire so it is a minimal con to instictive shooting and a big benefit to team safety.

I suppose that now I read back it's virtually the same to what Geryban has stated. I agree with him, I like the rules he mentioned. And nice video Jimothy, the 'range vs combat' mindsets differ dramatically.

A quote I liked from a Sniper in Afghanistan, "Be polite, smile. Have a plan to kill everyone". And a few quotes from Jack, "Everything is a tradeoff", "No conflict". :D
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"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Basic Firearms Safety

Post by jimothy_183 » Fri May 25, 2012 10:59 am

Clint Smith said something that is quite funny: "The first rule was to treat all guns as if they were always loaded, we should have just left it there".

In a way I think the safety rules should be rethought and condensed into just one golden safety rule (treat all guns as if...) and then the other 3 are "sub rules" to make the first rule more specific etc. Sorry if you don't understand what I mean I don't know how else to put it.

@ 15:35
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