Fighting from the Doorway

Moderator: jimothy_183

Post Reply [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Contact:

Fighting from the Doorway

Post by Ryan » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:52 pm

What do you guys feel about fighting from doorways? Especially against a dynamic room entry.
What are some of the techniques used during this process?

Here is one example:
Fighting From Doorway Isolation Drill: Urban Assaulter - http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1911615507780 (It's a video). I like to call this strafing the doorway when you move back and forth (one or multiple swipes/strafes) to see into the room and engage. The other videos there are IACT Facebook show this; him laterally moving back and forth while engaging through the doorway, sweeping the area ahead and shooting through. Even shoot-throughs where you engage through multiple doors ahead (i.e. from one room engaging through two rooms into a suspect).

"Most problems can be resolved from the door - clearing uncleared areas, corners and taking out threats before entry.

If your CQB tactics and techniques breakdown after the first shot is fired, it is not a useful tactic."

Tags: Fighting from the door. FFTD.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
jimothy_183
Military
Posts: 1030
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:55 am
Location: Australia
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by jimothy_183 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:20 pm

Isn't the whole idea behind limited penetration to fight from the doorway?
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

User avatar
tacticalguy
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: Florida
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by tacticalguy » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:34 pm

Fighting from the doorway as opposed to a dynamic entry? If you're talking about large open warehouse style buildings, it accomplishes the mission AND prevents potential friendly casualties then, I'm all for it. I think it has it's uses in specific circumstances. I can also roll a frag grenade through the doorway and not even expose myself for the doorway isolation shot. It all depends on mission parameters. I don't discount any ideas out of hand.
Last edited by tacticalguy on Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by Ryan » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:33 am

jimothy_183 wrote:Isn't the whole idea behind limited penetration to fight from the doorway?
I think it's the whole idea for individual techniques too, take it slow and do it right. Mitigate all known risks before entry.
Fight from doorways, windows, openings. Anything you can use to your advantage.

Unless you run into the middle and do a big 360! :lol:

Picture, breach and ready to fight from the door. Must of been an extra breach after the initial, meaning barricaded and prepared enemy.
Image
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by Ryan » Thu May 24, 2012 10:48 pm

tacticalguy wrote:Fighting from the doorway as opposed to a dynamic entry?
I think it could lead to a deliberate entry especially if there are multiple threats inside the room and to clear the full area and barricades within the room. If you are out of the doorway engaging whilst moving in or pause to engage then move again it could still be dynamic but with the obvious negative drawbacks such as giving away your entry and position. The problem for me whilst moving in is accuracy and getting a number of credible shots on target, I have seen some videos with paper targets where US Soldiers only engage that target once, move in the door and power turn into the hard corner. How many shots do people recommend? (Of course depends on space allowed, time, the threat itself, cover or barricades).

You are in the fatal funnel and a restricted space of fire. The good news is that yes you can use grenades from the door, gain an advantage and keep them locked in and break contact at any point you need. Any more points?

For instance,
Is it riskier, especially in terms of a Door Ambush scenario?
Can you push the BG's concerntration, clear from the door and wait before going for the last 1 to 2 corners?
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
jimothy_183
Military
Posts: 1030
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:55 am
Location: Australia
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by jimothy_183 » Fri May 25, 2012 12:37 pm

semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by Ryan » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:48 pm

British technique known as "fighting through the door", as mentioned in other threads as pre-fire and clearance by fire, you continue into the room, putting rounds into corners. Some like to use full-automatic for this. It's not exactly fighting from the doorway but you engage pre-entry, moving through the door and in the room. There must be a lot of reloads? So I wonder when they are checking for unit status or when they clear the room they have a reload drill.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by Ryan » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:30 pm

There is also that possibility when the enemy pushes against you, your team mates have to make good space to allow you to pie and fight from the door and to break contact or engage a pushing threat.

If they push against you, you need space to move, don't move directly at the threat unless he has been taken down or you are confident that your rounds will put him down.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
jimothy_183
Military
Posts: 1030
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:55 am
Location: Australia
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by jimothy_183 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:13 am

Well if you think about it it's just a switch between the defending and attacking roles.
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by Ryan » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:25 am

With that switch comes a lot of tips, lessons learnt, ideas and techniques. If you put it down 'just a' you wouldn't be learning or sharing anything. In the real-world you're constantly learning and things click, you take all the small details as a simple fix but to express these small details allows further growth. In conversations you want them to keep flowing and not be halted by general comments, if a general comment is made it should be to expand a thread.

A threat moving on you; They will be stressed, last resort, relying on hope more than skill, aggression and violence of action, 'helmet fire'. You can use this to your advantage and work as a team on the threat.

As stated if they attack you want to go laterally or obliquely at them and not front-on so they have to adjust to engage you. I've seen where a person is half right of the threat, as the threat adjusts to his half right the person moves quickly on his left, making him have to adjust in the opposite direction; allowing for space to over-adjust, over-sway/swing. If you try move on a persons weak side it's a tonne better. Splitting the door is good but if the target pushes he may push through the middle as stated before in the cross-over technique. Once engagement is made it's decision time on how you move or if you move into the room and at what speed.

From outside the door you can virtually clear some obstacles, if you go prone you can see under desks and what not for any signs of combatants, lowering or escalating their priority appropriately. A sliding scale of clearance, from known to unknown. "Situation dictates".

Speaking of fighting from the doorway, I've seen some ignore the key rules of CQB and stop in the FF to fire from the door. I've seen some offset outside and bend down to quick peek in or pie it from virtually a supine position on the ground. Other than that engaging immediate threats whilst moving in is quite awkward unless you offset from the door to engage then move on a good angle to hook around into the HC. Otherwise you engage and by that time you're in the room and you turn and it's already over. Sometimes the stack is too close for immediate front-threats and offsetting is the best idea. It allows you to shoot just as you come to the door, begin to hook, allows you to engage EC and then swing straight into HC.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by Ryan » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:36 am


0:30. Note: Slower when engaging whilst going through entry point hence why back off and engaging through it is better, offsetting or engaging 1 second or less before the team enter could be better options. Engaging there would mean other enemies in the room would be on the fatal funnel, engaging back (slippy trigger!). Clogging up the FF is the last thing you want to do whilst engaging from the door, infact sometimes I think it's better to engage from one door and come in through another entry point.

But the way he steps in with his right foot to push the door back then swept into the room, front plate on was pro.

They seem to engage nearly all the last rooms from the door before entry. So it does have its risk factors and associated risks, but it's good for taking out that immediate threat. Some have a coverman at the opposite doorjamb, covering front whilst the team move in. You have to weigh it up on the spot rather than an SOP - unless the SOP specifically is made to cover rather than engage a threat.


1:26. Immediate threat, no engagement = they are dead or the hostage is dead. Observing corners more than the sweep of the room during modified, this means less of the room is covered on initial entry until the AOR is clear and the operator turns into the room. Using weak side of the door too, uh oh.


Fighting from the doorjamb. Basically acting as a coverman. Problem: People have to crouch to get under.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by Ryan » Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:32 am

One thing I've always wondered: "Is it best to clear both corners from the door or one and move in?"

I know that if you're clearing both, you're static and in the fatal funnel. A big no, no to the rule shouters. But at the same time you've got the doorjamb for potential cover and less distance to break contact. A moving target is a harder target though, and you want to be a hard target.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
jimothy_183
Military
Posts: 1030
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:55 am
Location: Australia
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by jimothy_183 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:38 am

If you have time, slice the pie and clear both sides. If not, then clear what you can before going in.
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by Ryan » Thu May 02, 2013 5:50 am



A great example of fighting from the door.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by Ryan » Fri May 03, 2013 1:29 pm

Another example noted of covering from the doorway then dropping muzzle line as operators move past.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/video/95 ... vid9542574

I like some of their immediate threat drills, snapping back into the corner.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by Ryan » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:40 am

Another example video by Russians.

CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by Ryan » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:02 am

CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

User avatar
Ryan
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by Ryan » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:41 am



A video demonstrating a good way to strafe a door.



When instincts kick in.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

ClearRight
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:39 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by ClearRight » Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:15 am

Ryan wrote:
There are a few things in this video I do not like. While these guys are obviously well-traned and exhibit very good "flow", initiative and smoothness, look at the dude at 1:07 leaning out in front of an open door to engage when there's someone further back in the room covering that door. This is the reason I like the wall flood variations. There's also a few examples of people passing by danger areas. The Americans, from what I can see, seem to be a bit more systematic. You can "fight from the door" without leaning inside and getting in the way. :wink:
More guns and bullets make bad guys go away faster,
which in turn makes everyone in the area safer.
- Paul Howe

DTas
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:32 pm
Location: Israel
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Fighting from the Doorway

Post by DTas » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:18 pm

I personally had this debate with many people in my line of work and this question is, to me, the holy grail of the CQB world.
here are my thoughts about this matter.

1. It's a question of architecture and the protection the element is wearing.
If you'r wall can offer you cover, and not only concealment (this talking inside houses, not on the street), it's better to work from the doorway, since you'r ability to use your entire set of tools is much better. (grenades, attack dogs, EOD guys, shooting covers inside the room).
most of the walls in my area are 4-8 inch thick cynderblocks, which offer some protection, ecspecially with a ceramic plate on you.
the short summary of this is: your force outguns and outnumbers the enemy, use your advantage in weapons as security.

2. It's a question of speed and surprise.
If you are in a position to surprise the occoupants inside, it might be better to rush through the door in order to spread the force inside the building faster.
this idea we can label as - SPEED IS SECURITY, but only as long as we have SURPRISE.

3. A couple of observations from training.
Fighting through the doorway takes much more time, which makes it less effective in a CT or HR environment.
Fighting from inside the room results many times in many wounded guys inside, which prevent you from using grenades later on.
Fighting from inside the room is problematic when dealing with a threat from the next room.

these are my thoughts on the matter, i personally teach how to fight from the doorway.

Post Reply
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “CQB Individual TTP/S”