Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Moderator: jimothy_183

Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Postby Eiffel » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:19 am

When does your rifle safety come off or go back on? I've heard some teach putting the rifle on fire at the initial entryway before entry, conducting the entry, and then putting the rifle back on safe before moving. Then as you approach the next door the rifle goes back on fire, and it repeats.

I've heard others teach rifle on safe right up until you have a shootable threat, then rifle goes on fire, bang bang bang, safety comes back on once you decide you're done shooting. In this method flipping the safety off as you raise your rifle is an ingrained action. Advantage here being you have one set of safety on-off practices no matter whether you're making entries or running around in the woods. Disadvantage being possibly losing time manipulating the safety, especially for lefties using a righty gun.

Edit: In retrospect the individual TTP/S subforum might not have been the right place to post this. If someone can move this to General that would probably be best.
Eiffel
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:53 am

Re: Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Postby Ryan » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:23 am

Across Tactical Training Companies and Military Schools and Police Academies you have different strands of thought regarding safety, orders and standards for opening fire, rules of engagement and other limiting factors to survival.

#1 Safety Off All Circumstances

Eli recently met some guys that ran no safety everywhere. "Glock has no safety so why not rifle?"... This is not good logic. Not good tactical reasoning. Not good anything. Two separate platforms, two traditionally distinguished roles, two capabilities, are treating the 'same' in terms of safety. This is tactical relativism and absolute stupidity. Even worse, these guys were LAW ENFORCEMENT. All circumstances just increases the risk towards BLUFOR. I would not recommend this.

Think about the mistakes. Mission compromise. Noise compromise. The mission comes over ego.

#2 Safety Off Specific Circumstances

John Mac and Phil Singleton have both said that operating without safety was comfortable for them, in given situations. Both of these fellas ex-SAS. John Mac in his former training company used to say that it was accepted to go safety off when entering the room or about to enter. He'd run safety off quite often, and did so during the Iranian Embassy Siege in London. Phil Singleton has stated similarly.

Climbing a fence? Safety on. It does not make sense to yourself or your buddy for the goal of getting over a fence. Now, if you have tacladders and you can point over the fence and see, then safety may come off to visualize the unknown area.
In "cemented" position in a limited entry? Safety off then you can scan. If you trust you visibility into the room, if you trust yourself, and if you can control the situation (experience, training, attitude).

#3 Safety On Until Threat

Sounds good in theory and certainly the best 'across the board' SOP. But for an IOP in a fighting team, it hardly cuts it. If you can see the threat, the threat can see you. In close combat, this means a second until shots go off. I'm not sure I'd like to go safety -> engage. Or even worse... safety -> aim -> engage. It's a similar argument to point shooting. The more you can get out of the OODA loop cycle, the better you're going to be.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."
User avatar
Ryan
 
Posts: 2780
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am

Re: Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Postby Eiffel » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:56 am

I think it also depends on the weapons. The dinky little MP5 selector is hard as hell to reach if you have normal hands. I remember reading in Paul Howe's article that they used to have their armorers spot weld metal tabs to extend the safety switch. I also found another article from a former CAG guy: https://www.greeneyetactical.com/2016/0 ... he-safety/

My personal opinion is that having the safety on doesn't cost much time at all. Safety manipulation occurs as you bring the rifle up on target. So unless you teach clearing looking through your sights, the time difference is negligible.

It is interesting how different units take different SOPs about safety use. I see a lot of NSW guys who teach or practice #2. A lot of CAG guys who are big fans of #3. The CAG guys are also very methodical about pre-combat checks and constantly knowing the condition of their rifle, not only whether it's loaded or unloaded but whether it's safe or on fire. As in keeping your thumb riding on top of the safety when it's on safe and you're just carrying it, or pressing up underneath it to ensure it's still on safe when you pick your rifle up if you had to unsling and set it down.
Eiffel
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:53 am

Re: Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Postby tacticalguy » Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:14 am

Safety on during the run-up to tactical operations; loading onto vehicles and aircraft to ferry you to your AO, etc. Once you're in your Area of Operations and inside the Yellow zone, safety off. Red zone, safety off until you exit, through the Yellow zone and into the Green zone. If you're chasing someone over a fence, I can see putting your safety on if you have supporting personnel to cover you. Of course, that also puts you at risk unless one of the ones covering you is on HIGH over-watch and can see into the area that you're pursuing your fleeing subject into. JMHO.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
User avatar
tacticalguy
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Postby Eiffel » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:52 am

Do you re-engage the safety if you have to sprint? I'm a civvy so I have no idea what's taught in mil or LE circles but a lot of the open-enrollment instructors seem to insist that the safety must come on if you are running and not shooting as you move. Not sure if this is one of those things that they actually did operationally or whether it's partly for safety in a class setting around unfamiliar students.
Eiffel
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:53 am

Re: Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Postby Ryan » Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:20 pm

And to further Eiffel's questions, can you clarify the different zones?
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."
User avatar
Ryan
 
Posts: 2780
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am

Re: Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Postby tacticalguy » Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:58 pm

Eiffel wrote:Do you re-engage the safety if you have to sprint? I'm a civvy so I have no idea what's taught in mil or LE circles but a lot of the open-enrollment instructors seem to insist that the safety must come on if you are running and not shooting as you move.

Ideally, I'm not sprinting, at any point. That's what my long range interdiction specialists are for. If I have to sprint at any point outside of the structure, someone is going to be on their way out of my unit. IF it were necessary, I would likely advise my folks in the Yellow zone to BOLO the subject.
Eiffel wrote:Not sure if this is one of those things that they actually did operationally or whether it's partly for safety in a class setting around unfamiliar students.

Everyone has their own comfort level. In my old unit, I was comfortable with any of the other shooters firing past me. I knew how good they were.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
User avatar
tacticalguy
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Postby tacticalguy » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:40 am

Ryan wrote:And to further Eiffel's questions, can you clarify the different zones?


Well, these days, I tend to think in LE terms when it comes to CQB engagements, mostly. Green zone is your outer perimeter where EMS, reporters and support staff are safe. Yellow zone is inside the LE perimeter set up to catch bad guys trying to squirt through and where SWAT/SRT personnel are suiting up and jumping onto the Bearcat.
Red zone is inside the SWAT/SRT perimeter where we're setting up on the barricaded structure.
OR
Green-unarmed and you're okay.
Yellow-armed LE only.
Red-SWAT/SRT personnel and equipment.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
User avatar
tacticalguy
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Postby Ryan » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:02 am

tacticalguy wrote:
Ryan wrote:And to further Eiffel's questions, can you clarify the different zones?


Well, these days, I tend to think in LE terms when it comes to CQB engagements, mostly. Green zone is your outer perimeter where EMS, reporters and support staff are safe. Yellow zone is inside the LE perimeter set up to catch bad guys trying to squirt through and where SWAT/SRT personnel are suiting up and jumping onto the Bearcat.
Red zone is inside the SWAT/SRT perimeter where we're setting up on the barricaded structure.
OR
Green-unarmed and you're okay.
Yellow-armed LE only.
Red-SWAT/SRT personnel and equipment.


Thanks for this. Here in Australia we have a similar system with hot and cold zones.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."
User avatar
Ryan
 
Posts: 2780
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am

Re: Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Postby tacticalguy » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:03 pm

Ryan wrote:
tacticalguy wrote:
Ryan wrote:And to further Eiffel's questions, can you clarify the different zones?


Well, these days, I tend to think in LE terms when it comes to CQB engagements, mostly. Green zone is your outer perimeter where EMS, reporters and support staff are safe. Yellow zone is inside the LE perimeter set up to catch bad guys trying to squirt through and where SWAT/SRT personnel are suiting up and jumping onto the Bearcat.
Red zone is inside the SWAT/SRT perimeter where we're setting up on the barricaded structure.
OR
Green-unarmed and you're okay.
Yellow-armed LE only.
Red-SWAT/SRT personnel and equipment.


Thanks for this. Here in Australia we have a similar system with hot and cold zones.


Always happy to help, sir.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
User avatar
tacticalguy
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Postby Breacher01 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:54 am

Eiffel wrote:I think it also depends on the weapons. The dinky little MP5 selector is hard as hell to reach if you have normal hands. I remember reading in Paul Howe's article that they used to have their armorers spot weld metal tabs to extend the safety switch. I also found another article from a former CAG guy: https://www.greeneyetactical.com/2016/0 ... he-safety/

My personal opinion is that having the safety on doesn't cost much time at all. Safety manipulation occurs as you bring the rifle up on target. So unless you teach clearing looking through your sights, the time difference is negligible.

It is interesting how different units take different SOPs about safety use. I see a lot of NSW guys who teach or practice #2. A lot of CAG guys who are big fans of #3. The CAG guys are also very methodical about pre-combat checks and constantly knowing the condition of their rifle, not only whether it's loaded or unloaded but whether it's safe or on fire. As in keeping your thumb riding on top of the safety when it's on safe and you're just carrying it, or pressing up underneath it to ensure it's still on safe when you pick your rifle up if you had to unsling and set it down.


Well, i have a great solution for you, H&K make those, I don't know the NSN numbers, but since the HK's are ambidextrous you can put them in yourself. Our A2's have them, and they also fit the other MP5's
Breacher01
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:42 pm

Re: Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Postby Breacher01 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:23 pm

Addition:

We have safety on when assuming everyone's first position for entry, withing the engagement our index fingers are the safety. You buy everyone a beer if the index finger is caught by bodycam on the trigger when not firing.

Safety is always on while there are civilians in the area, safety's you index finger when the area is cleared for insertion. you lose about 20 beers if you mess up. after-deployment reports also require ratting on your colleagues don't use their index finger correctly, but thats not noted if there was no (near)incidents...
Breacher01
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:42 pm

Re: Thumb Safety Engagement in CQB Context

Postby Alfa47 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:57 pm

This thing is definitely also dictated by your gun. For example, if it's an AK with a regular safety(we've all seen the cool-guy Spetsnaz quick-use selectors) you obviously won't be able to operate it quickly. So, when you get into combat, the safety comes off and it stays off. That's how the Eastern folks do it.
Alfa47
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:17 pm
Location: Eastern Europe


Return to CQB Individual TTP/S

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron