Point shooting

Forum to discuss close quarter shooting.

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Point shooting

Post by Admin » Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:43 am

At what distance is point shooting accepted? Ore is it not an option?

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Post by jimothy_183 » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:27 am

Now I don't have any real life experience at all but I'd say it depends, but mostly in CQB nobody uses their sights, or so I heard anyway unless they have to make a concentrated shot (such as when a person is being used as a human shield by a hostile) or when they have to shoot at long distances inside a building or a house (a big open warehouse is a good example).

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Post by Jack » Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:53 pm

Let me see if I can clear this up. First of all missing is not an option. You can not miss. What you are talking about is point shooting v's aimed fire. I suggest you think about it another way.

Let us call it an exceptable sight picture. If you are three feet away it is simply point and shoot, usually two times(double tap) and or until the suspect is no longer a threat. Theses shots can be fired very quickly with out using the sights. If you had to make a head shot at the same distances, you might have to take a little bit longer and at least get a flash sight picture.

As the distances increases, the longer it takes to make your shots, and the more you need to use your sights. There is no magic distance, every shooter has a different skill level.

Andy

Post by Andy » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:21 am

I have read that some units use light and/ore lasers for aiming, and some times the weapon is held in the armpit and not in the shoulder. Is this true?

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Post by Jack » Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:55 am

The simple answer is to say no. I don't know of any team that is using lasers for aiming. Two problems with lasers. One, when you do shoulder the weapon and look down the sights, the laser beam can not be seen. Two your weapon is going to get banged around in your trunk and in the field. I wouldn't bet my life on the fact that the laser has not been knocked out of perfect zero. I think that the reason lasers were popular was because it is hard to line up your iron sights when you are wearing a gas mask.

The old trick of aiming with a flashlight appears to have been in use with SAS hostage rescue at one time.

You also have to realized that there is a difference between military teams and law enforcement teams.
Last edited by Jack on Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Admin » Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:28 am

I thought when the mission is hostage rescue the ROE is the same for both military and police, if the military is called to provide “special help” to the police.
Also the SOP for entry techniques, shooting and so on, is the same. When they have to work together. Ore am I wrong?

Jake you sound like you have lots of real experience, where are you from?

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Post by Jack » Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:42 pm

You are not wrong. The police are having to be more like the military and military is having to be more like the police. Both have been learning from each other for a long time. To an extent Police and Military are doing the same things when they enter buildings. However every team is different. I don't know any two teams that do things exactly the same thing. Many teams to have the same missions though. Such as Hostage Rescue, Barricaded suspects, active shooters, VIP protection and so on.

Not all teams are created equal though. Some teams make entries with six people and some use twelve. Some teams operate on American soil and fall under our legal system, and some work overseas and work under the military legal system. Theses things will change your tactics, what you are willing to do and what you are able to do as a team. That's what makes CQB so interesting.

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Post by 5shot » Sun May 18, 2008 4:44 pm

I have a site on point shooting www.pointshooting.com

It has free info on various Point Shooting methods (CAR, FAS, QK, P&S), and data and articles dealing with CQ self defense, plus the Army and Marine combat pistol manuals.

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Post by Admin » Mon May 19, 2008 10:30 am

Hello 5shot

And welcome to this forum

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Post by birddog » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:43 am

Andy wrote:I have read that some units use light and/ore lasers for aiming, and some times the weapon is held in the armpit and not in the shoulder. Is this true?
The use of lasers for AIMING in the real world of combat is restricted to lasing a target. Our M4's will have mounted on them an AN/PEQ 2 Laser designator. The lasing of a target is usualy reserved for airstrike missions, Indirect Fire missions and for Snap Shot Missions. other than that , we do not use lasers to aim at a "Hadji" and we do not use White Light flashlights, we use IR lights.
They say that hard work never killed anyone, but why take that chance ?

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Post by jcheng14 » Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:27 am

dot / reflex sights > lasers

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Post by jimothy_183 » Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:30 am

Here's a quote I read:
Point shooting -> Reactive shooting

Sighted shooting -> Proactive shooting
Anyone agree with this?
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

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Post by geryban » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:31 am

i think, in cq situations you have to forget the real sight shooting. if you trained well, you can hit the target with point shooting technique or whatewer you call... you have to use your weapon in the corners: rifle go first this is a fact, and you cant use your sights if you want to move quickly. if you are not well trained, in slicing you will shoot the wall... if you are not well trained one hand shooting (during team moving for example) you will shoot everything...

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Post by Nightwolf » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:44 pm

I agree with Garyban 90%. In cqb situation forget the sight shooting but in warehouse or places have long corridor.But in some situation the sight can help if the target is behind cover and you can see a little part of it to shoot.
If we see the civilian part of it/PSD, BG in high risk areas/ the sight is important when we have to take out the principals from the building is under attack. Before left the house/if it need/ the sight help at long distance shooting while moving out /of course not that site where from the attack come from/. There are two sites of coin. I always have a sight on my weapon.

Just my 2 cents.
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Post by 5shot » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:06 pm

New Video on U-Tube on how to Point Shoot with a pistol.

Name: EZ Point Shooting with a pistol.

Works with all types of guns.

Here's the Url:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=511eT8Iwvd0

And here's a link to a new and very brief article about this method which employs our natural ability to point at objects, and which the US Army says can be used to engage targets rapidly and accurately.

http://www.pointshooting.com/1awhyps.htm

If you are satisfied with your ability to Point Shoot, the information may not be for you, but it might help others in getting comfortable with Point Shooting.

The method does not prevent using the sights. It can enhance Sight Shooting.

It gets you on target fast. And if there is time to use them, and you are able to use them, by all means, use them.

When Sight Shooting can't be used, it would be nice to have a method that is effective at CQ, because if you are going to be shot and or killed, there is an 80% chance that it will be at less than 21 feet.

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Re: Point shooting

Post by Ryan » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:51 am

Point shooting meaning instinctive shooting?

For all shooting methods, you must at least pause for a second to confirm before you squeeze the trigger (the D & A of the OODA loop).
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Dramatikk

Re: Point shooting

Post by Dramatikk » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:58 pm

Point shooting and Instinctive shooting is pretty much the same thing, just different names for it. The name Instinctive shooting originated from Israel I believe ... Not sure about that though. :roll:

And of course you never shoot faster than you can effectivly engage the target, but since we are talking about engaging targets within 7-10 meters from you there is not much of a problem placing the shots. Just Focus --> Point ---> Shoot. 8)

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

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Re: Point shooting

Post by geryban » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:51 pm

quickshoot, pointshoot whatever (use, when you have no time, or cant aiming) work 2-4m with handgun, 6-7m with rifle. If try more maybe yes or no. If no, its not a quick shoot.
I was in a lot of rapidshooting national championships, 5meter, first or first two shoots. Shoot very fast, no aiming. Not easy. first 2 shoot, under a second, from normal IDPA concealed carry holster. from 5 meter...

If U aiming (finish the draw, and find the sight) 0.2-0.4sec more. But it will be in the target sure. Decide
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Re: Point shooting

Post by 5shot » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:12 am

The hit rate in CQB shootings is less than 20%.

The NYPD's old but still good study of thousands of Police combat cases, found that
1. most all gunfights occur at less than 21 feet,
2. OfficerS WITH FEW EXCEPTIONS fired with the strong hand,
3. most all used instinctive shooting (read that spray and pray),

If you are going to be shot and/or killed there is an 80% chance that it will happen at less than 20 feet.

As to using the sights, sorry, but that just won't happen in a real close quarters life threat situation. And that's because adrenaline will be released into the blood stream, and it relaxes the cilliary muscle in the eye which flatens the lens of the eye to enhance far vision. And that prevents close vision focusing on stuff like the sights. And the lens will stay that way until the adrenaline is out of your system.

I am a fan of what I call AIMED Point Shooting or P&S. The U.S. Army says it works. But for thirty years from 1912 to the 1940's the U.S. Military cautioned against using it with the 1911. But not because P&S doesn't work, but because of a design fault of the 1911. If P&S is used with the 1911, the 1911 can jan when fired.

If your interested, here's a link to some articles that explain all about it.

The U.S. Army Now Backs The Use Of P&S - Who Backs Your Method?
http://www.pointshooting.com/1abackup.htm

A Brief on AIMED Point Shooting or P&S
http://www.pointshooting.com/1abrief.htm

U.S. Patents Acknowledge And Employ P&S
http://www.pointshooting.com/1apatent.htm

The 1911's Fatal Flaw - or why you shoot automatics with your index finger on the trigger.
http://www.pointshooting.com/1911flaw.htm

http://www.pointshooting.com/1asop9.htm
The SOP9 Report - An analysis of NYPD police combat.

Part 1 of the FBI paper on handgun wounding factors and effectiveness.
http://www.pointshooting.com/1afbi1.htm

Part 2 of the FBI paper on handgun wounding factors and effectiveness.
http://www.pointshooting.com/1afbi2.htm

You are welcome to copy the materials and use them as you wish. I expect lots of flack, but that's OK.

For sight shooter advocates, here's a link to my page that's dedicated to pics and videos of Sight Shooting being used effectively in CQB. If you check it out, think hard about what you find, and why that is so.
http://www.pointshooting.com/1april1.htm

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Re: Point shooting

Post by geryban » Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:26 am

When you are in a real situation, U will do what U train a lot whatever it is, belive me, I was in it.
Who care the statistics? If U can use your weapon, U have to use it every type of situation, not just in the 80%...
Nobody use this technique in this world. if it works, where use it?
"survival shooting" is not my way. I am a professional shooter, and i belive everybody can be.
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