Combat Shooting Positions: Standing unsupported

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jimothy_183
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Combat Shooting Positions: Standing unsupported

Post by jimothy_183 » Thu May 21, 2015 7:28 am

Here are 3 links to act as a primer on the ideal (IMO) and most modern variant of the standing unsupported shooting position with the rifle in particular.

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/c ... our-rifle/

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/05/1 ... t-a-rifle/

http://www.thegunshowradio.com/defense/ ... -urban-use

I am still studying this subject so more information will follow.
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

ClearRight
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Re: Combat Shooting Positions: Standing unsupported

Post by ClearRight » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:17 pm

I disagree strongly with the whole leaning forward at the waist thing - ref that last link. You'll tweak your back wearing body armour, and it won't really work when wearing a pack. The same thing can be accomplished by stepping more forward with your forward foot and leaning into the weapon rather than bending. Use your bodyweight to counter recoil rather than your muscles. The whole squaring-your-feet-because-you-can-track-a-moving-target-more-easily thing I disagree with too - people are blessed witht the ability to move their feet in order to turn :wink:

Check out Kyle Defoor's stance - more bodyweight distribution than bending, more depth in his stance (i.e. more distance between the feet front to back):

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which in turn makes everyone in the area safer.
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Re: Combat Shooting Positions: Standing unsupported

Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:29 am

I am about to make you watch a whole barrage of videos. Sorry about that. :lol:
ClearRight wrote:I disagree strongly with the whole leaning forward at the waist thing - ref that last link. You'll tweak your back wearing body armour, and it won't really work when wearing a pack.
I didn't pick up on that but I hope the author of the article meant "lean forward at the hips" as leaning forward at the waist implies slouching the back which is bad ju ju.

When it comes to leaning forward at the hips as long as you keep your back straight you shouldn't have to lean so far forward that you put a strain on your back with or without BA and/or a pack on your back. And even then, this can be countered by strengthening the back. As they say in the Australian Army, "drink some concrete and harden the fuck up". :lol:

If you have additional weight on you, you can lean less forward at the hips accordingly.

However it is a fact that the head controls most of the centre of gravity and is in fact more important than the rest of the body leaning forward.




@ 1:35 watch the marine fire .45 ACP and brace against the recoil just by having the head forward and the rest of the body upright.


@ 3:12 don't have to lean that far forward to achive the aim of bracing against recoil


Different ways to brace against recoil. tl;dr They way you advocate and the way I advocate both work.


Again, both work, just different pros and cons. Personal preference prevails.

And for the record, in case someone points out that all the vids above only show pistols being shot, I have fired 5.56mm with a squared up stance, my right foot slightly back and have not had any problems with bracing against the recoil.

Example:

@ 3:30 explaination of stance then @ 4:46 10 rounds rapid, no problem.
ClearRight wrote:The same thing can be accomplished by stepping more forward with your forward foot and leaning into the weapon rather than bending.
As above, no stance/technique should involve bending the back as it will lead to injuries. Also with stepping forward as I said it will achive the aim just the same with different pros and cons.
ClearRight wrote:Use your bodyweight to counter recoil rather than your muscles.
I don't quite understand what you mean by use your muscles but as Ron Avery points out in his weaver vs isoceles video it is the [squared up] isoceles stance that actually uses the bodyweight to counter the recoil.
ClearRight wrote:The whole squaring-your-feet-because-you-can-track-a-moving-target-more-easily thing I disagree with too - people are blessed witht the ability to move their feet in order to turn :wink:

Check out Kyle Defoor's stance - more bodyweight distribution than bending, more depth in his stance (i.e. more distance between the feet front to back):
Basically what you are saying is that you are an advocate of the weaver stance over the isoceles stance in shooting. I would have to say that I myself am an advocate of the isoceles stance for the reasons that Rob Pincus talks about in the videos below.


Larry Vickers explains the 3 main stances for shooting a rifle


Why natural and neutral is better than staggered


How beliefs can affect speed


Pincus applies his teachings to rifle shooting
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ClearRight
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Re: Combat Shooting Positions: Standing unsupported

Post by ClearRight » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:26 pm

I was referring specifically to that last link of yours. That dude has no depth, only bending. He's also god his head down, not forward, meaning he's looking through the top of his eye sockets - straining and means you'll be looking through the top edge of your eye pro (where the lenses are more curved and usually collect dirt and grease - not conduicive to great accuracy).
jimothy_183 wrote: When it comes to leaning forward at the hips as long as you keep your back straight you shouldn't have to lean so far forward that you put a strain on your back with or without BA and/or a pack on your back. And even then, this can be countered by strengthening the back. As they say in the Australian Army, "drink some concrete and harden the fuck up". :lol:
That expression's been the cause of a few injuries and a lot of misery over the years. :P
My point is, by stepping out slightly more with the forward foot and transferring your weight so most of it rests on that foot, you'll have a stance that works for rifle/carbine in anything from a t-shirt, via BA to a vest + 120l pack weighed down for 72+ hours of OP duty.
jimothy_183 wrote:
@ 1:35 watch the marine fire .45 ACP and brace against the recoil just by having the head forward and the rest of the body upright.
That's basically how I shoot handguns and rifles as well.
jimothy_183 wrote: And for the record, in case someone points out that all the vids above only show pistols being shot, I have fired 5.56mm with a squared up stance, my right foot slightly back and have not had any problems with bracing against the recoil.
There is a difference, which should be noted. Pistols don't need as much leaning. Most of the recoil is controlled by the hands and never reaches your body, as opposed to a rifle or carbine - provided you have your elbows unlocked. I teach a slightly different (deeper, as I call it) stance for rifle than for pistol, but one can be used for the other.
jimothy_183 wrote:
ClearRight wrote:The same thing can be accomplished by stepping more forward with your forward foot and leaning into the weapon rather than bending.
As above, no stance/technique should involve bending the back as it will lead to injuries. Also with stepping forward as I said it will achive the aim just the same with different pros and cons.
That was what I meant. A lot of people - including some of those you linked to - bend their back rather than lean.
jimothy_183 wrote:
ClearRight wrote:Use your bodyweight to counter recoil rather than your muscles.
I don't quite understand what you mean by use your muscles but as Ron Avery points out in his weaver vs isoceles video it is the [squared up] isoceles stance that actually uses the bodyweight to counter the recoil.
Bending at the waist uses more of your muscles than just leaning, shifting weight onto your forward foot. No need to fatigue yourself more than what is necessary.

And no, I do not recommend the Weaver for pistol shooting. The modern Isosceles is actually a slightly staggered stance. I just step out a little more with my forward foot when shooting rifle to use my bodyweight to counter the recoil.

These are simply my recommendations as to what I consider the "optimal" stance based on experience during my last few years as my units' primary firearms instructor. My opinion is worth just as much as you paid for it. Your experience, preferences, mission and mileage may well vary.
More guns and bullets make bad guys go away faster,
which in turn makes everyone in the area safer.
- Paul Howe

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Re: Combat Shooting Positions: Standing unsupported

Post by jimothy_183 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:37 pm

I feel like we are starting to run around in circles like a dog chasing its tail here.

But I will say this, I don't advocate bending or slouching of the back at all. Like in all things that involve manual labour from moving heavy boxes to shooting the back should be straight. My preference is to lean forward from the hips and keep the back straight when shooting all while keeping the feet close to being in line and the body squared to target.

With the preferences on stance and where the feet we both have opposing views on what is "optimal" and I still stand by what I say because I believe in the scientific findings of Avery and Pincus. That being said the way you advocate with stepping more forward is also a combat proven way to do things. Like you said "Your experience, preferences, mission and mileage may well vary". And like I said "they both work, just different pros and cons"

With the head down/leaning thing I sort of agree. I think there the head should definately be forward but at the same time there should be a little bit of lean as well. However it shouldn't be exagerrated to the point where like you said it causes strain and blocks out part of your view.

And finally, yes I agree with you in that the injury rate in the Australian Army could be lessened if they put a bit more thought into the consequences of how they run training and not just tell people to deal with it.
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

ClearRight
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Re: Combat Shooting Positions: Standing unsupported

Post by ClearRight » Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:39 pm

It's like the muzzle up vs muzzle down discussion all over again! :lol:

Shall we agree that it's all good so long as you can do it in the kit you wear for work, it's based on sound principles and you're willing to try new things to improve?
I know I've spent a few years trying and failing to get to what I do today...
More guns and bullets make bad guys go away faster,
which in turn makes everyone in the area safer.
- Paul Howe

DTas
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Re: Combat Shooting Positions: Standing unsupported

Post by DTas » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:34 pm

For a few years I've been teaching the Israeli point shooting technique on both rifle and pistol.
I'll write down a few base assumptions on the technique itself and the stance in incorporates.

First of all, the technique I'll explain is an instinctive pointing technique, the whole point of this technique is to en-corporate natural body reactions under stress in order to create a simple and effective shooting technique.
such technique is most relevant for engaging targets somewhere at 15 meters, but is easily can be used to reach to as far as 200 meters.

base assumptions:
1. under stress the body will try to get on the trigger as fast as possible in order to let out as many rounds until the target drops.
2. the body will stop and harden itself.
3. most important - at close ranges, our eyes will have a target lock, you wont look through the sights (similar to what happens when shooting a target at ~3 meters)

For this reason we'll use a point shooting technique.
What is a pointing technique?

The idea is quite simple, everyone has heard of muscle memory, if ill try to point at someone with my finger, i'll probably be able to do it instinctively, only due to the fact i've already done it thousands of times before.
The same we can do with our weapon, if we'll practice the movement of putting our sights on the target enough, it will happen instinctively under stress.
This motion can be anything, from as simple as bringing your weapon up from your shoulder to the more complex Israeli "stabbing" technique.

Another important aspect of the pointing technique is the separation between assuming the body stance and the pointing motion.
This is simply because of the fact that many people complete the pointing motion faster then they are assuming the body stance, which in order leads to the first shot to be released while the body is still in motion, usually creating first shot misses.
Go back to the finger pointing example, try to point at someone while assuming a standing stance, you'll probably start missing him at around 8 meters.

So, We'll start by assuming the body position, then point our weapon, and finally start blasting away as many rounds as possible untill the target is down.
we'll train ourselves with 3 principles:
1. First shot must be on center mass, where the first shot goes, the follow-on shot will follow.
2. body must be as tight and strong as possible, this will reduce the time takes to let off a follow on shot.
3. Even firing pace, we'll release the follow-on shot the first moment we'll see/fell we're going to hit the target. This involves 2 conditions, the weapon is somewhere on target, and the shot isnt taking place while the recoil still takes us away from the target.

Firing splits are: 5 shots a second at 12 meters, 3 a second at 25 meters, 1 a second at 50 meters.

Keep in mind, I'm shooting looking down my sights in training in order to create a muscle memory, but i'll probably wont be looking through them in a real engagement, that's what point shooting is all about.

Now lets talk about the shooting stance:
First you'll have to understand that there is no absolute good stance that is good for everyone, but i'll describe a good and simple to learn stance I teach my guys.
This stance is designed to absorb recoil for the point shooting technique, but can be used while moving, working from cover and shooting distance targets with simple modifications.

Weapon position:
should prevent the weapon from tumbling and shaking at from the muzzle to the stock in order to achieve good and consistent follow up shots.
left hand (for the right handed shooter) -
Should be as high as possible and as close as possible to the, i prefer the U style clamp where the thumb and indexing finger meet up at the front sight post. (AR-15 style weapons).

Stock and Shoulder -
No absolute right for this one, Should be at the point when looking down the sights, pulling the weapon back should result at no movement at all.
For this I like to place the stock as centered as possible to my chest, and 1/3 of the stock higher then the chest bones, that way I dont have to tuck my head in (interrupts blood flow).

Body position, from feet to shoulder:
Feet -
A bit more than shoulder's width - creates stability, like a tripod.
Left foot a bit forward, creates an angle of 25-45 degrees to the target (this depends on the distance between the left and right hand)
Parallel to each other, easier to absorb recoil.

Knees -
Bent to the point it starts being uncomfortable.
Weight speard evenly between the knees.
Knees are closer to each other than the feet, you shouldnt be able to sit down from this stance.

hips and back -
Back is straight
Hips create a slight lean to the front, center mass somewhere over the feet line.

Elbows -
Tucked in as much as possible.

Right shoulder (for a right handed shooter)
Goes up to the chin level.

Everyone of those point has a practical reason behind it, i wont write them all down here, feel free to ask.

Correcting recoil management mistakes:
3 types of mistakes are often made, the first 2 are related to the weapon and body positioning and the 3rd is more a mindset based mistake.

1. wrong weapon positioning:
Creates either inconsistent muzzle movement or loosing the sights in follow on shots.
How it looks to the shooter:
A. Inability to control the recoil, weapon shaking.
B. "losing" track of the sights while firing.

How it looks from outside:
A. muzzle shaking inconsistently.
B. weapon shaking back and front inside the shoulder.

How to fix it:
A. A firmer grip on the weapon, tuck in as much as possible, hold the weapon as high and as front as possible with left hand.
B. Place the stock a bit higher, push weapon stock as much as possible with the shoulder.

2. Wrong body position:
Creates weapon movement to a specific and consistent direction.
How it looks to the shooter:
Weapon sight moving to a specific direction (usually up and right) and back.

How it looks from outside:
The same, consistent movement to a specific side by the muzzle.

How to fix it:
for right/left movement: move your left foot front/back counter the direction of muzzle movement (muzzle goes right - left foot back)
for up/down: lean a bit more/less to the front, back stays straight. (weapon goes up - lean a bit more)

3. Bending at the weapon while shooting.
A mistake usually not seen by the shooter, creates bullet drops left and down.
When the body starts absorbing recoil it'll start tightening itself, start off as tight as possible to confront that.

To summarize:
this has been an introduction to the instinctive Israeli system I teach, which is used to drop targets at close ranges with as fast as possible with as many rounds as possible.
It included - What is point shooting, how to use it and why, an explanation about the shooting stance and finally recognition and countering shooting mistakes often seen with the system.
The explanation is for the right shooter, lefties simply reverse the right/left sections.
Feel free to ask any question about it, also i'll try to take a few videos, stay tuned.
For the meanwhile:

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Re: Combat Shooting Positions: Standing unsupported

Post by ClearRight » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:10 pm

Interesting concept. At what point do you find yourself transitioning to your sights? How does this work with red dot sights vs iron sights, seeing as red dots are easier to use?
More guns and bullets make bad guys go away faster,
which in turn makes everyone in the area safer.
- Paul Howe

DTas
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Re: Combat Shooting Positions: Standing unsupported

Post by DTas » Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:57 am

ClearRight wrote:Interesting concept. At what point do you find yourself transitioning to your sights? How does this work with red dot sights vs iron sights, seeing as red dots are easier to use?
Just don't get me wrong, I heard a lot of criticism on such israeli methods especially with the handgun techniques, I do use my sights, I do it in training while acknowledging the fact that I'll probably won't focus on my front sight or my sights as a whole during a close engagement.
The whole focus of this method is on getting into position from the natural ready (which simulates all kinds Of positions) in such a way that every time your weapon is up, you are on target straight away.
Why is that, because during even slight stress levels, like a relatively unexpienced shooter in a SF course during his final weekly test, will start firing right away when his weapon is up, even if not completely on target, that because he's slighly nervous.
now compare that to a real life firefight.

The sight are there, being irons or red doss, they help you understand the general direction your weapon is pointed, it's easier to keep track of a red dot sight, and iron sights are sometimes lost in such rates of fire, but he shooter is familiar with his firing rate which allows him to hit the target without sights.
In training, I'll familiar my body to the firing rate by using the sights, shooting the first moment I feel ill hit the target.

Reminding you of the 3 principles:
1st shot center mass.
Body position strong and right
Consistent rate of fire

The sights start to become relevant somewhere at the 30 meter line.

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