Safety [ON] or [OFF]

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Ryan
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Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by Ryan » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:57 am

Safety ON or OFF!

Simple question. In CONTACT do you rock the safety on or off? When are you switching between and why?

I have heard many statements upon safety being OFF during contact and even when in a ready posture for combat. D-Boy's in Somalia were notorious for having their safeties off, sometimes even as they went to the chow.

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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by jimothy_183 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:04 am

It's funny because apparently MSG Howe was known to have the safety off even when not in contact in the past but has gone the other way with his articles, 2.
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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by Ryan » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:42 pm

I heard that when John Mac worked with Stirling Services he always told the guys to operate with safeties off stating "You can't shoot anybody with them on" like it was for the professional soldiers.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

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"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:05 am

MSG Howe said the same thing about levels of training in the above articles as well.
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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by Ryan » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:18 pm

It sometimes is all about professional mindset, if the situation is too much then be safe about it. If it's controlled then should you need it? Not always. I remember that article about the Special Operations support group or something, I think an Engineer detachment. But anyhow they were rocking it without safeties and ended up finding a cache, to which this dude passed his weapon to an SF (I think) dude who grabbed it by the pistol handle, which is obviously taught in basic NEVER to do, and he got shot a few times. He was injured to the point of living on disability and not being allowed back in the Army and wanted compensation, he took it to the media and I remember reading the article. Now things like that should be the safety aspects drilled into you.

CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by seal236 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:23 pm

If your gun is out and you plan/ or there is a possibility of shooting you are on fire. Any other posture its on safe. Even in the chow line!!!

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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:47 pm

seal236 wrote:If your gun is out and you plan/ or there is a possibility of shooting you are on fire. Any other posture its on safe. Even in the chow line!!!
To add to this quote I think that a good rule of thumb for people who want to do it the way professionals do it by having the safety off during expected or possible contact situations is that when you have full control over your weapon (good firing grip) you should have the safety off with finger off the trigger. When you have relinquished control over your weapon in part of in full (weapon slung) then safety should be on.
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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by Ryan » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:18 pm

So that would that include as you're moving into the room: Out of the stack. Or even in the stack? I've heard of it.
If you're going to sling your weapon or use it for non-engagement tasks, i.e. muzzle strike or transition then I think it should be on.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:27 pm

I would hope so otherwise you wouldn't be making the entry in the first place, without a dangerous weapon that is.
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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by tacticalguy » Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:02 am

My sidearm is a Sig. The safety is six inches above my shoulders and centered over my neck. That's what I was told in the Army, that's Rule #1. That's what I believe. I never have my finger on the trigger unless I plan to pull it. As far as an AR, MP5-10 or anything like that, refer back to Rule #1.
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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by tire iron » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:46 am

Short answer - it depends.

Long answer:

My experience is that is also depends upon the situational environment,

What I mean by that is when operating in .mil or as a contractor in a combat environment with men that have honed skills, mindset and tactics - running safety off is no big deal. However - when you add in less experienced troops - safety ON except when actually firing.

Stateside while doing Bail Enforcement (Bounty Hunting) my team mates and I always ran safety ON. Liability was too huge to do otherwise - at least in our situation. The odds of contact - while real - was also very low compared to other jobs I have been involved with.

Hope this helps,

cheers

tire iron
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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by jimothy_183 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:45 am

semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by Ryan » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:00 am

Well that's a point tire iron. Bounty hunting is all about the catch, and you don't want your catch to have a hole in his/her head! The same could be said for a HVT mission, a capture not kill mission. Nice article Jimothy. Trigger pull weight always matters there, too light and you'll shoot half your leg off. :lol: Unstable arms, such as those vehicle mounted i.e. an M2, have been known to set off a round after hitting bumps in roads and hence why they are always safety on. Stability of weapon is always paramount for safety and reliability. If safety is in speed, and live-death measured in milliseconds then I wouldn't agree with the conventional safety, that being safety is when the weapon is on safe, because safety would be defeating a target quickly without pissing around with the fire mode. If you're conducting a two-man drill say a buttonhook on a room then why enter on safe? Risk measurement is the whole purpose of this thread, there is no wrong or right answer.

"Our policy suggests that when the weapon is not in direct control by the master hand then it is placed on safe." - RB1.

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/11/08/cq ... out-there/
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by Ryan » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:49 am

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/138905 ... ouse_.html ...

Then comes safety when you're talking about fear, adrenaline, being twitchy or nervous - working with civilians. So forth! On an controlled entry, muzzle discipline is worth more. You sweep, don't shoot.

"Safety on when you're about to hit the target - and no, it is not slow" - Admin.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by AGR416 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:48 am

The safety goes off when your sights are coming on to the target. The trigger finger stays off the trigger until you have your sights on target and you have made the decision to fire. You can stay on fire for the duration of the engagement and during the post engagement phase. The last part is important as a threat might need to engaged further, or new threats might appear as you are scanning the rest of your sector of fire. When moving, stacking up, reloading etc the weapon goes on safe. If you are transitioning to a pistol or clearing a malfunction you should attempt to put the weapon on safe. If you are properly trained with your weapon system, you won't be distracted if the weapon can't be put on safe.

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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by Ryan » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:33 am

"We chased them into a compound. This is an experience I will not forget. Think about it: You know the enemy fighters are somewhere in the compound and wait to see them with each turn and each room you search. You have switched your rifle from "safe" to "fire" and know you will have a split second to pull the trigger to kill up close. At the same time, you know some civilians might be in the compound so you will have to discriminate before firing. You expect to be shot at with each step: Looking up, looking behind, looking at holes, etc. In this case, the enemy fighters got away through a well hole and tunnel (we later found and arrested them outside the compound)." - http://thetandd.com/news/close-quarters ... 87c79.html ... "CQB is the smallest two-way range you can be involved in, prepare for it."

"When you move your rifle to aim, switch it to fire. The second you look over, put it on safe. Just a good habit to get into. That way you won't ever forget. When you search and assess you should be looking over your sights/optic to avoid tunnel vision, so your weapon should be on safe."
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by Ryan » Sat May 04, 2013 11:01 am



1:32 - Thoughts on that?
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by jimothy_183 » Sat May 04, 2013 6:35 pm

Nothing new to be seen here. At the end of the day it's up to you if you want to keep the safety on. People such as Haley say that having the safety on buys you more time to make a cognitive decision to shoot. I don't believe that as I believe that good trigger finger is what minimises the shooting of no shoot targets. Also consider the possibility of the motor skill of flicking the safety off being ingrained into muscle memory that can be initiated without cognitive thought, thus defeating the aforementioned purpose.
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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by Ryan » Sun May 05, 2013 2:57 am

This situation is a dedicated attacker who is an immediate threat to life and limb when seen. Weapon up and facing the door. That's the definition of a door ambush. If Haley thinks you incorporate safety off into the OODA loop then let him think that. It's then a decision process on a decision process. To come off safety, to aim and/or engage. To me, unrealistic in this setting - any bi-way decision tree or decision within a decision can be when you're talking about seconds. Deployment distance being so close is measured in a mere few seconds. Tango agreed with your last point, "Safety is a finger and brain." He also said, what if you had a Glock? You have to be instantly postured to engage, if you're going to pull into concealment then engage while doing so because targets move in reality.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Safety [ON] or [OFF]

Post by Ryan » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:59 pm

"There are arguably situations that may warrant running hot on entry, the number 1 man in room entry would be one where his weapon oreintation is always the 12 o'clock or in his path of least resistance. After the initial entry the subsequent team meambers as they move to points of domination whether in a room or clearing a compund have all become in essence a number 1 man as they clear in opposite directions with interlocking fires as they colapse the room. The infamous "but" only then as they gain domination in their sector is their weapon placed in hot mode.

Oh yeah, the other rule is finger off the trigger until target is ID'd positively (PID)... Break each movement for firing into 1/4 and 1/100th seconds increments and that is your measuring stick for how fast you can get in action when that overwhelming urge to shoot someone comes upon you..."
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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