The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol Draw

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Dramatikk

The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol Draw

Post by Dramatikk » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:25 pm

Wich one do you guys prefer, and why?

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by Admin » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:07 am

Please ad som videos for us to analyse!
http://CQB-Team.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/CQBteam
Tactical education and motivation.training info for the soldier that wish to learn the art of CQB.

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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by Dramatikk » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:36 am

The five count pistol draw:



The Israeli/Mossad pistol draw:

It is not easy to find good examples of this draw, but here comes a couple of clips.





Hope this helps ...

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by Jack » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:15 am

Five count pistol draw. It is a handgun not a handsgun. I want to be able to deploy the gun instantly with one hand if necessary. Plus if I have to draw it when stealth is a concern, I don't want to have to cycle a round giving away my position.

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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by geryban » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:19 pm

Five count draw? Like a dance school... :DDD
Here is mine, now called: "I cant count, i have rules"

Most important, first of all, rule 0, etc: DRY PRACTICE!!. Every day twice, 10 minutes. When you pick up your gun(s) in morning, and when you take down at evening. My opinion is that U practice enough, U will be good enough, whatever U do... If u do this, you dont need this "five count" and any youtube videos, belive me...

Practice it from 5m-10m to the IDPA Alpha zone in the range. If your first aimed shoot under 1.2 sec and allways in Alpha... its fine.

self defense gun draw rules:

1., go cover if its posible as fast as U can. Low profile behind cover (elbows, legs). Dont forget an instinctive quick look for identify the threat (who, number, where, weapons, situation, etc.). If you want to count this is the ONE.

2., FINE GRIP! : find your gun, make fine grip ("feel the grip", squeze, push down a little in your holster) and prepare your support hand to draw

3., DRAW! : finger out off the trigger, good grip with the support hand, your draw have to curve as it needed (pass by the cover, the enemies hand in CQC, or any obstacles). Dont care how your arm or elbow move up or down, JUST PASS the obstacles!

4., PUSH IT! : as it needed, but some fact have to know: quick point shooting (near by the body) not more faster (0.1s) but much-much more innaccurate. my personal experiences are it works (90%) only very close combat situations, less then 1,5m (and as closer the gun to my body as more dangerous it myself in a stess situation... part of my clothes, malfunction, compensator, many more). So do it if you would protect your gun in CQC... and you practiced it a lot!!!

5., AIM! In the last 20cm in draw. DO NOT lift the gun to your eyelevel first and push straight (or if you lift, dont push... possible way of close quarters, cornering, any CQC stuffs...) . lift to eyelevel and push it long in the aiming line is absurd, uncomfortable, slow, and hit your view. You will find the first sight in the last 20 cm of your draw. When your eyes find the sight your finger find the trigger.

6., SHOOT! : The last 0,05sec, the last 20cm: half triggerpush, little sight correction, focus, shoot

7., The self-defense handgun is made ready (hummer down, safety off), or cocked and locked (SA)... so CHAMBERED.
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Dramatikk

Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by Dramatikk » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:31 pm

Am I the only one that uses the "Mossad" draw?

The way I see it and the way I have been instructed, you should not trust the gun safety switch/ button with your life. This because the gun safety system is not fail proof, and the round can be fired even though the safety is on.

When using the "Mossad" draw you have no round in the chamber when the pistol is holstered. This meaning you will not accedently shoot yourself while walking/running with the pistol holstered.

Talking about the draw itself. The main differense between the "Five Count" and the "Mossad" is that one is chambered with safety on, and the other one is un-chambered with safety off. The time it takes for the "five Count" to turn off the safety during the draw is about 1 second, and the time it takes to rack the pistol during the "Mossad" draw is also about 1 second ... So, in my opinion the argument that the "Five Count" is faster than the "Mossad" is in my book invalid.

All it comes down to is wich of these two pistol draw techniques is safest to use, and as you know now I believe that the "Mossad" draw is the better choice ... But with this said, I absolutly see Jacks point conserning the noise level and the priority of stealth, and this is indeed very valid arguments.

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

EDIT:

Got a strange feeling I'm going to get hammered for my view point on this one ... :lol:

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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by geryban » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:23 pm

Dramatikk wrote:....
Sorry buddy, but .... WTF???? :D :shock:

1., I have two pistols. A GLOCK 17 GEN1, carried it 10 years. A SIG-SAUER P226 TACOPS , new stuff, carry it theese days. I ask you: where is the safety, what I have to switch on??? (Its true for ex: Spr. XDM, some USP, Walter P99, and many more...) I have never heard about an accident with a modern pistol...(with passive safety- pin lock) in the holster....

2., BUT!!!! If you carry your gun unchambered, you need booth of hands in the draw. What is it mean? first: You can not shoot before rack... And you can not shoot, if you cant use both hands (yes, I know: you can chambering in your belt, in your boots, or any ninja techniques... but not in stress, and not under a second. Bad guy will paint you three times during this, belive me...)

So, imagine: you and me go to the range, guns clear for dry practicing. Im your enemy. Try to draw and rack if :
- I cuddle you, like your girlfriend
- Girlfriend cuddle you, I threated you
- I stand in face of you 10cm near
- I stand in face of you 2meter far, and I step between your arms when you start to act.
- I squeeze your one arm
- I squeeze your booth arms
- I hit your face
- and finaly: Im chambered.

Now, imagine these in real situation... well, if you Dont FORGET the chambering.... (high stress, tube view, "blue screen", and theese friends... :D )
Think about theese, and be sure you affraid of type of accidentaly fire what nobody never heard?? Well, carry a gun maybe not your way, mate....
WORK HARD, PLAY HARD!

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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by jimothy_183 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:31 am

The two most important safeties include the one inbetween your ears and your trigger finger.

This guy shot himself because his trigger finger slipped inside the trigger guard before he was ready to fire. Whether it was a bad habit where he normally does it or if he just didn't practice enough before trying to do it quickly under stress, I don't know.

Suarez now looks for a particular trigger finger placement now.

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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by Itsahak » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:11 am

Not a fan of carrying my firearm unloaded. I know, I've seen Aaron Cohens training, and I've got a friend that attended his class. He doesn't like it either. It's how they rock it in Israel. Good for them. Doesn't fit into my training regimen at all. When I need to smoke a bad guy, the last thing I want to have to remember is to chamber a round... I want it ready to go! I've carried several different firearms in my time as a LEO. Many of them had external safety's. I never carried them with the safety engaged on duty. I've never had one spontaneously discharge. Things that happen, like the video posted above where the guy shot himself, usually are the result of poor or inadequate training practices.

That said, if the Israeli method works for you, knock your self out friend! My friend that was in Cohen's class said that when on the firing line, Cohen was just as fast as he was and had combat effective hits on target. I just don't want it for me and my department.
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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by jimothy_183 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:18 am

Another thing is that the reason why the Israelis do this is because they have a policy which states that they have to carry unchambered (when operating outside the country?).

I'm just having a bit of a guess here but I think that a lot of the Israeli operators would rather carry +1 but they can't so they are just adapting to the situation.
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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by jimothy_183 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:20 am

Dramatikk wrote: The way I see it and the way I have been instructed, you should not trust the gun safety switch/ button with your life. This because the gun safety system is not fail proof, and the round can be fired even though the safety is on.
http://www.warriortalknews.com/2010/11/ ... scope.html
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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by Dramatikk » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:43 pm

Hahaha! I was counting seconds after I posted my comment, expecting someone to start hammering it right away. You guys sure twisted my arm there. :lol:

Regarding the safety issue, this was something that I got printed into my mind by one of the club instructors from the beginning with. This was because a member had not too long ago accedently shot himself in the leg while drawing a pistol from his holster with a round in the chamber. (He almost bled to death)

And how the story was told to me, this persons gun went off without him touching the safety switch. The round went off while the pistol was still holstered.

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by geryban » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:37 pm

And Elvis is alive... :DDD

Shooting ranges legends... I can write a book with thousand pages about these.
Perhabs, it could happened with a "never cleaned" halfa-million shoted club gun, or a full pimped IPSC OPEN gun, but with my self defense gun?? I dont think so... The possibly truth is that the guy wasnt a professional shooter, and he make a fatal mistake...

Every pub have 10 instuctors, ninjas especially near the range... :D The really hard thing is decide what advice is usable, and what is not. Reasons, details, facts will help to you to decide.

Oh yea! Do you know, if you push any guns trigger, the gun can blow up in your hand?? 0,01% but it can. It happened with me several times in the last 10 years. I have a scar on my nose, one in my arm and one on my chin and have many broked googles... I have a friend who have a "rear sight design" scar under his eye. Slide broke and went back... I can talk to you about this stories all night, belive me... So if you carry a gun unchambered, take the mag out, and pounch with it. Its safe!!
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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by jimothy_183 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:14 am

lol geryban. :lol:

Yeah, that guy at the range who shot himself was probably (not) telling the truth to protect his pride.
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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by Ryan » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:20 am

:lol:
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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by Dramatikk » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:09 pm

I see that Badger's friends/ colleagues are using the Israeli pistol draw. Does that mean that Badger too are using this type of draw from the holster? Now I got curious. hehe



Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by badger » Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:32 pm

No, they/I have chambered gun.
The video is preview of training possibilities. Every "swat" guy have chambered his gun. Try to use your secondary weapon unchambered near silent approach on ladders, ropes, etc, etc.
Tap and rack and shoot, rack and shoot, fix the problems with malfunctions, its all about the training. Therefore you can see "israel" shooting in video.

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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by jimothy_183 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:08 am

semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

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Re: The Five Count Pistol Draw VS The Israeli/Mossad Pistol

Post by tacticalguy » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:21 am

Hmmm... First, I don't worry about the Mossad Draw because my weapon is always cocked and locked. My weapon is a Sig P226 with no safety. Unless the trigger is pulled back, the weapon won't discharge. My training and common sense are my safety. Second, I use a Blackhawk Serpa Level II thigh holster, the butt of my weapon is 4" below my hip line. When I draw my weapon, I'm already moving for cover, unless I'm about to make entry into a structure in a potential situation.
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