Blind Firing, Applicable?

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Ryan
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Blind Firing, Applicable?

Post by Ryan » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:26 pm

Is blind firing applicable in a CQB environment?

http://www.wikihow.com/Blind-Fire-a-Gun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindfire

If so, why? If not, why?
When and when is it not applicable?


17:40.
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Re: Blind Firing, Applicable?

Post by jimothy_183 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:48 am

If you don't care about hitting innocent civilians, go right ahead! :wink:
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Re: Blind Firing, Applicable?

Post by Jack » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:22 pm

I don't prefer the term "blind fire" or "suppressive fire."

I like the term "target directed fire". This technique will make people safer, so I don't mind sharing it because I don't see how it could be misused.

If a threat is in a window, or hiding near a window and you are outside a residence and want to keep his head down while my partner maneuvers, I would place rounds in the ground under the window, or possibly in the header above the window. Essentially firing into a safe backstop. If the threat appears you can always adjust your rounds on the target. In an rural setting the safe backstop could be a thick tree, if you don't know where the threat is.

These rounds should be fired in a metered fashion to save ammunition, basically about a round every one second.

This is a great drill to practice on the range.

Don't fire into a wall where you think a threat is hiding. Do consider firing into a wall, couch or any object where you know a threat is hiding.

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Re: Blind Firing, Applicable?

Post by Ryan » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:42 am

Thanks for the replies. Good way of thinking about it Jack. We've seen a lot of poor techniques with blind firing used by the Libyan Rebels and some Ghadaffi elements... you have to have the environment for it first of all, I see them doing it in open ground and getting no where. You need an urban, up close battle for it to be somewhat effective (though it's not made to be effective, and often demonstrated as being opposite to that by people who don't think about their technique). Say a corridor/hallway, aiming around upper leg to chest height and at likely positions say on entry. If you used it on a street corner you'd minimise chances of success which are already low, none the less the same principles take place:- engage likely positions. It's more of a shoot and scoot, spray and pray method, I wouldn't really call it a tactic as I don't think it would increase chances enough to improve situation in most common scenarios but surely in some it would.

Grozny and similar urban settings showed pretty good effect by using it specifically instead of as a standard procedure, on both sides.

So next would be technique, exposing the minimal amount of yourself while controlling recoil and not aiming but using perspective to consider engaging chest-ish height and then bugging out. Surely it is a defensive technique rather than offensive, I think that's where most go wrong.

The blindfire you talk of Jack is more offensive, engaging likely scenarios while maneuvering forward and working as a team. That's keeping heads down accurate enough that if one pops up it's taken off. With other types of blindfire it's more of a shock and last stand factor, get rounds going down and try intimidate. Probably the tactics of the bad guys you come across.... at least the poorly trained or no chancers.
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Re: Blind Firing, Applicable?

Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:13 am

Pretty much, yes.

Blind fire = spraying and praying

Therefore, only to be used by untrained gangstas, thugs etc.

On the ther hand, suppresive fire or target directed fire or whatever you like to call the application of controlled, rapid fire with the intention of fixing an enemy can be used in both offensively or defensively.
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Re: Blind Firing, Applicable?

Post by Mako Defense » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:14 pm

Very, very few CQB situations will not involve the possibility of the presence of innocent people. We believe that accuracy and speed are essential for CQB work, and must be balanced against each other. In other words, at any given range, two shooters may use a slightly different rate of fire, because one shooter may have the skill to shoot slightly faster accurately. You shoot as quickly in any situation as you can accurately.

In the case of suppressing a threat, it is often best to fire only when you have a visible target, and hit him with accurate fire as he appears. Accurate fire on the threat is often very effective for suppressing him permanently.

Our philosophy in counter-terror urban warfare tends to be that when the threat is not visible, we are closing distance.

Of course, it has a limited place in a large-scale battlefield setting with larger weapons, not so much small arms - we called this recon by fire. The point was to shoot at suspected positions to get something to move or shoot back so you could identify and engage.
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Re: Blind Firing, Applicable?

Post by Alan » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:52 am

From my point of view blind fire may achieve the following aims, intentional or not:

1. Intimidate the enemy
2. Suppress the enemy
3. Incapacitate the enemy

Advantages:

- Minimise Silhouette
- May create illusion of larger force that actually exists
- Distraction

Disavantages:

- Reduced Accuracy
- Reduced situational awareness

Simply put if blind fire in comparison to other options is the best tactic for any combination of advantages/disadvantages then i would recommend it.

This assumes emotions aren't a factor.

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Re: Blind Firing, Applicable?

Post by Ryan » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:45 am

Some use by US Forces. For more head here: http://lucianread.photoshelter.com/gall ... tIywZE/2/1 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Kasal.

It could be classed as an individual survivability drill i.e. when pinned, blocked; to regain iniative, to suppress, halt, kill, intimidate or impede the enemy. Some problems are that it creates target fixation and possibly hesitation from no visual assurance that the target is down, or even hit. It also confirms your location from the wall, which can possibly be penetrated.

"A wounded Marine was trapped beneath a stairwell by an insurgent armed with a AK-47, the Marine firing through the doorway killed the insurgent".

"Kill or suppress the enemy without exposing oneself to direct fire".

"It's a common tactic used by all troops when the shit hits the fan [BLUFOR and OPFOR]".

Another common OPFOR tactics which may include this is PHASING. Shooting from a position to bait the enemy. Shooting from multiple positions to confuse the enemy.
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Re: Blind Firing, Applicable?

Post by jimothy_183 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:28 pm

Well I think that this kind of goes back to the second guide line in this thread about being the judge and jury of ones own actions. As far as I know blind firing is something that is, by doctrine at least, something that should be avoided. But sometimes, like the situations you posted at the end of your post, blind firing can indeed be what is needed to resolve the situation at hand quickly, effeciently and safely (at least safe to you and your fellow operators).

And I'm stating the obvious here but it is also a risk vs reward thing as well, i.e: risk is you hit a civvie or hostage and the reward is you get to resolve the situation with minimal risk to self.
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Re: Blind Firing, Applicable?

Post by Ryan » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:07 pm

Well, you get a lot of ineffective use in my opinion with blind firing unless conducted in the correction situation, and done correctly (which is often misused and misinterperated). I suppose if you have a close threat and you start shooting you can begin to peek it as you've gained some fire superiority and put the enemy under a bit of stress.

"Former Commandant of the Marine Corps Paul X. Kelley once said that the effect of the introduction of the M16 rifle was that "The United States used to be known as a Nation of Riflemen; now we've become a Nation of Sprayers". It was due to the tendency of soldiers to spray and pray during the Vietnam War that the US replaced the automatic-fire setting that was on the original M16 with three-round burst fire for the M16A2 and M16A4/M4 carbine. I'm sure most you guys here have a good understanding of marksmanship fundamentals, obviously it's preferable to aim rifles and machine guns at targets by aligning the sight system, but in the heat of battle sometimes firing blindly is the only viable option. "

If in the military you can knock-off hostage for the vast mission arrays conducted but keep in mind civilians. If there is no, or you suspect no civilians and ROE allows then you add the cons of recoil, therefore accuracy, while engaging and having to have a stable platform of which to do so.

"Seems that some people don't get what blindfire is: the shooter fires his weapon from behind an object (wall, car, corner...) and he does not know or care where he is aiming = shooting blindly. If a team is cornered this might be their last lucky chance to repel/slow down the advancing enemies at close range. But using blindfire as an "alternative" to cover fire is senseless. There is just a very small chance to hit anything important with blindfire, better use cover fire and know where the bullets go and where enemy actually is."

Blindfire is especially beneficial when pinned by accurate fire or when in very close proximity to the enemy. Blindfire has been used by since the invention of the firearm and always will be used.

"Blindfire is not effective and could be used as last/deperate chance - if there is enough ammo left. One can be lucky to hit someone without even looking at him or knowing where he actually is. Blindfire is just a try to create some "confidence" or "faith" that the oppenent might not realise that he got the upper hand/initiative of this situation and that he could outmaneuver those blind shooters. Of course the oppenent could also simply shoot + wait until defending team/group is out of ammo/support. Some use of siege tactics."

"Blindfire is preferable to a bullet in the head. I have plenty of footage where the bullet doesn't miss it's target. There's no 'restart' option in the real world."

"Blindfire is meant to suppress, not kill. In most firefights, soldiers suppress the enemy until an opportunity arises to kill the enemy. And I seriously doubt, in large engagements, that you're going to kill the enemy without first suppressing him."

"Blindfire is meant to be used on a chokepoint, use the tactic to the correct situation."

"Blind fire may only work under unique circumstance, and the chances are, if you have to blindly firing your weapon towards enemies that you cannot see, something when very wrong in your mission, I am not saying it is unrealistic and no one use it, but it really is the least efficient way to employ your weapon, and a nightmare tactic if you have limited supply of ammo. Besides, if it really is a worthwhile thing to teach you to, you'd be seeing Travis Haley or Chris Costa teaching you how to do it. The bottom line is, it really is a cave man tactic that are not recommended under normal circumstance."

I do not agree with the Travis Haley/Chris Costa statement; that is based on Western values, tactical philosophy and consciousness to our theatres of war and not attracting attention to their TARGET AUDIENCE.

"The only blindfire I'd recommend, is with a grenade."



"It is supposed to be used when in proximity of the enemy, they probably already know you are there. You can use it on visual contact, while trying to get to cover, because you have a proximal guess of where they are."

"When fighting at extremely close range aiming may not even be an option, as exposing oneself to direct fire will result in certain death."

Well there you go, lots of opinions in this post!
I quoted them from different forums.




Also, would blindfire be applicable in room clearing, i.e. clear the main areas - threat in room, HC, blind fire into it before or as moving in instead of quick-peeking or just going front on? I.e. Israeli Limited to blindfire for HC's, an IOP for some?


Seen here full and partial/semi-blind firing techniques.

EDIT: POST EDITED. The youtube channel containing about 20 examples of blind-fire in other 7 theatres of combat has removed most of them. Sorry folks, I found some ones that will do instead. Some of my comments or phrases may seem confusing now!
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Re: Blind Firing, Applicable?

Post by Ryan » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:52 pm

Just reading BHD, in which a Ranger has heard a Somali above them moving around, firing at others across the street. The Ranger's are within a small hut. The LMG goes outside and cannot reach or see the top of the hut so he leans the end of the muzzle against the hut, gets it as horizontal as possible and sprays a long burst from left to right by which the Somali is heard panicking and in obvious pain; presumed dead after falling off the hut.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Blind Firing, Applicable?

Post by seal236 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:27 pm

Anyone who says they would never use 'blind firing' has never been in a building gun fight.

Hell yes blind fire works!!!

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Re: Blind Firing, Applicable?

Post by Ryan » Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:08 am

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6fc_1352577667

Warning: GRAPHIC.
But 6:30, watch that guy!
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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