PVP and TVT vs COOP and PVE tactics

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Ryan
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PVP and TVT vs COOP and PVE tactics

Post by Ryan » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:48 am

What do you think the difference is?

Any definitions would be great.

From my point of view and gaming experience I see a lot of "tacticool" actions that really make tactical sense but seriously don't work in a real-time, real-opponent event. "What works is what matters".

- PVP/TVT is harder, more unpredictive, than COOP
- COOP prepares you, just like real-life linear and one dimensional drills, for an unreal environment and enemy such as paper target shooting and unskilled AI
- PVP pushes all your senses and ability to the edge and beyond (Superhuman!) and you develop more inter-personal skills (attributes, actual skill, reaction)
- Both genres can do well in each others gametype given the right exposure and both categories have skills that need or can feed each other, for example a CO-OP player will know how to use a sniper rifle properly and adjust for windage but the normal PVP player will be brainless on tactical philosophies
- Fighting AI doesn't mean you're good at fighting a player and AI does not allow any proper analysis of how a human would or potentially might act
- COOP allows you to enjoy the game more, without a level of skill as a pre-requisite to win
- In a PVP you use your environment more, but controlling and co-ordinating assets is harder, any lull time gets you killed from my experience
- Co-ordinated attacks in CO-OP happen all the time, in PVP very rarely but when it happens it can be very devestating to the enemy
- In a PVE you don't know what to expect and sometimes transition between CO-OP and PVP tactics
- TVT has you use conventional and unconventional mix tactics to defeat the enemy
- PVP relies totally on individual skills and the situation at hand
- TVT/PVP most of the time you do not have the element of 'surprise', it tends to be head-to-head collisions with a limited time to each round
- In CO-OP as a clan you work with people you know and get along with, who understand your SOP's and IOP's, in other gamemodes it is different

An example,
2 AI vs you. You can win to a pretty good statistical advantage if you are fast enough.
2 Players vs you. Expect to die unless you are really that reactive and accurate against a threat.


What PVP tactics do you think work commonly as compared to COOP tactics that do not work?
For example break contact drills from my experience are useless in CO-OP, but relatively OK in PVP.

There are lot of 'unused' mental philosophies and tactics such as restricting movement and attacks, co-ordinating efforts between unreliant members, mixing tactics to not become predictable.
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Re: PVP and TVT vs COOP and PVE tactics

Post by jimothy_183 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:18 pm

Ryan wrote: What do you think the difference is?
It depends on the game in question. Some games have better AI than others. Brothers in arms serves as a good example of AI responding realistically to suppressive fire. Raven Shield on the other hand is the polar opposite with BGs jumping out and somehow manage to land a perfect shot on your face despite the fact that you're laying down a massive amount of firepower down a narrow hallway with a machinegun.

However, just like graphics technology, AI will eventually become more and more realistic and "human like" thus closing the gap between PvP and COOP.
Ryan wrote: What PVP tactics do you think work commonly as compared to COOP tactics that do not work?

For example break contact drills from my experience are useless in CO-OP, but relatively OK in PVP.
Well I think that you should perhaps think of the charging enemy as a Japanese Banzai charge from WWII. Looking back at history you might find some answers and therefore adapt to the vastly different enemy just as the allies who fought the Japanese back then did.
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Re: PVP and TVT vs COOP and PVE tactics

Post by Ryan » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:22 am

AI become predictable, even with complex scripts. Almost every game has AI that you can get used to over a relatively short period of time. I believe Arma 2's AI are said to be one of the best for a dynamic and large environment but they can be countered with some exposure and analyzing.

What do you mean look back to the suicide charge? The changing scenario of warfare, weaponry, tactics?

I was more looking for individual tactics you use and team tactics that are used.

For example, good tactics,
As a small team we split.

We progress towards an enemy location in different directions and distances but close enough to support one another.

On CONTACT we can engage from multiple directions and confuse the enemy. We can split further and allow individuals to either break contact or move upon the enemy.

It works for destroying small team numbers but its main focus is towards an individual such as a sniper or marksman.


For example, bad tactics,
Throwing a smoke grenade next to you.

Yes, it may cover that approach but it's a big tell-tale sign of "Hey, we're here"...

Not to mention obscuring view of enemy location and team mates and the countless other things that can make it tactically useless.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: PVP and TVT vs COOP and PVE tactics

Post by jimothy_183 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:13 pm

A very important point I forgot to mention was that when playing PvP, the only way to do it realistically is to have a scenario and everyone follow the "rules", "restrictions" and "parameters" if you will. It also needs a detailed context/background and clear objectives.

If you do not have these things then the game begins to break down into chaos and people start running and gunning and resorting to using tactics that are unrealistic that would not be done in real life.
Ryan wrote: From my point of view and gaming experience I see a lot of "tacticool" actions that really make tactical sense but seriously don't work in a real-time, real-opponent event or scenario when dealing with another human player. "What works is what matters".
Your statement about what works is what matters doesn't sit well with me because I see oppotunities where the realism can be compromised for the sake of "winning" according to the game parameters, which by the way are not always realistic. This isn't the players fault as the limitations of the current generation of games mechanics usually leads players to do things that would be considered to be unrealistic unless measures are taken to control them. This is where those things that I mentioned in the first paragraph come in. However, the more NORG a game is, the less this becomes an issue and remember: NORG is a philosophy that any serious milsimmer would swear by and uphold.

An example of uncontrolled players doing something unrealistic would be in Raven Shield. Imagine a hostage rescue scenario much like Operation Nimrod where one team is playing as the CT unit and the other team is playing as the BGs. Now imagine that the scenario states that the mission begins as a response to the BGs executing a hostage and that more are likely to die. Here's the thing, in the game the BGs will know for certain that the good guys will be making their way into the building even if the scenario states that the BGs are amateurs who don't know what the consequences of their actions are. In raven shield there is no real way to set up a cordon or a perimeter like in real life so a BG could walk freely outside without having to worry about being detained or shot. This is due to the limitation of the game mechanics.

Couple these things together and what you have is a team of BGs who know the good guys are outside, that they are going to come in and that they (the bad guys) have the freedom to go outside and engage them there instead. This result would be completely unrealistic.



Bottom line: With current technology and games PvP can in fact offer the most realistic experience as long as it is done correctly. If done incorrectly it becomes less realistic than Co-op. End of story.
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

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Re: PVP and TVT vs COOP and PVE tactics

Post by Ryan » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:15 am

I'm actually reading that Commando book and they observed a unit popping smoke and receiving hell for it. Multiple casualties. So these tactics may transfer
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

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"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: PVP and TVT vs COOP and PVE tactics

Post by Ryan » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:58 pm

CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: PVP and TVT vs COOP and PVE tactics

Post by Ryan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:50 am

Metagaming vs real-life tactics, thoughts?

And then real-life tactics, as in those taught compared to those used, thoughts?
For example: Buttonhook into a TB controlled compound, in game yes, in training yes, in reality second thoughts.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: PVP and TVT vs COOP and PVE tactics

Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:28 am

Ryan wrote: For example: Buttonhook into a TB controlled compound, in game yes, in training yes, in reality second thoughts.
In game is also a second thought if you are going up against human players.
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