Hostage Rescue

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Buzzsaw
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Hostage Rescue

Post by Buzzsaw » Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:19 pm

What would be the best way to deal with a hostage wearing a bomb-vest, and the terrorist has a dead-man's trigger (if he let's go of the button, the hostage goes BOOM!).

I've been trying to think of a tactic for this for a while now, but nothing to promising has come up.
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Admin
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Post by Admin » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:23 pm

Negotiation... :-)

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Post by Buzzsaw » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:39 pm

Yeah, I already knew about that. But what if the terrorist is non-negotiable?
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One possible option...

Post by JW417G » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:54 pm

I know of one possible option. I learned it in an Aircraft Assault course I took. The scenario involved a suspect holding a grenade (with the pin pulled) while standing in the isle, and passengers sitting all around him. So, it's similiar to your scenario.

It's a two-man operation, and it requires getting close to the suspect. One officer grabs the suspects hand to prevent it from coming off the trigger device, and the other officer immediately delivers a contact wound to the head...lights out. Suspect falls to the ground, along with the officer holding the suspect's hand on the trigger. Then, get EOD in there quickly. Tape the suspects hand to the trigger device until the hostage is out of the vest or the device is disarmed.

VERY, VERY RISKY OPERATION!!!

To many other unknown factors...Does the suspect have a secondary switch to detonate the device?...Does the suspect have a "handler" watching from a distance that can detonate the device? This option is easily defeated if the suspect maintains his distance from the officers.

While the negotiators are doing their thing, your "intel" people need to be working their ass off to get the suspect's history so you can have a better idea of how intricate the suspect might be with his device.

What you CAN'T do is allow the suspect and hostage to get close to other innocent people. Although you would hope other innocent people have been removed from the area, this situation could be in it's beginning stages, where people have not been evacuated from the area yet. If the suspect and hostage start moving towards other people, then you have to shoot the suspect before the innocent people are within the blast radius of the hostage's vest. Although you can't guarantee the hostage's safety at that point, you can guarantee the safety of the other innocent people by taking the shot.

Tough situation to be in...for everyone involved.
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Post by Jack » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:29 pm

Lots of options here beyond what has been talked about already. Whether any of them would work or not is another matter.

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Post by Buzzsaw » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:01 pm

I appreciate the replies. The tactic that you described had crossed my mind, but seemed too risky. I guess that's really about all you could do (disregarding other variables).
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Post by geryban » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:13 am

Me and some good friend from the Hungarian EOD in afghanistan, and other friend, who are a neurologist specialist, try to clear up this problem...

Our first idea was a high voltage device, because High voltage can cramp muscles, but it can launch the explosive device, so it not a good solution...

Eod's learn: in dead mans trigger situation, the perfect headshot (between the mouth and nose) can hit that part of the brain what control the contact between the muscular system and the brain. So if he squeze, it will stay squeze... but it just a teory, forced by doctors

(EOD team leader guy say first: in this situation, go cover immediately and start praying... )
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Re:

Post by Ryan » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:41 am

geryban wrote:Me and some good friend from the Hungarian EOD in afghanistan, and other friend, who are a neurologist specialist, try to clear up this problem...

Our first idea was a high voltage device, because High voltage can cramp muscles, but it can launch the explosive device, so it not a good solution...

Eod's learn: in dead mans trigger situation, the perfect headshot (between the mouth and nose) can hit that part of the brain what control the contact between the muscular system and the brain. So if he squeze, it will stay squeze... but it just a teory, forced by doctors

(EOD team leader guy say first: in this situation, go cover immediately and start praying... )
First part of your paragraph: Like an ECM? Blows the circuit between detonator and charge or completely deactives it from working all together. Maybe they could create a type of throwable device with water inside that amplifies the explosion away from where you don't want it to be...

Cut the det cord! Send the dog in instead! Use your body to stop some of the blast overpressure, at least if it was your last choice. Shoot the guy from far away, destroying the how ever many civilians down there but not risking anymore lifes or even better - sever the hand from the body. There is plenty of scenarios - all bad, there's never any good in that situation.

That part of the brain is the medulla oblongata, regulates breathing, voluntary actions and even aggression. Straight through the mouth can also be done (top part of the mouth) but it is riskier because of teeth, you just never know what the projectile might do - any case that would be a really rare event.
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Re: Hostage Rescue

Post by tacticalguy » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:10 am

I'm gonna go with Admin on this one, Negotiate. When you're in a No-win situation, change the circumstances, the rules, the setting, whatever you need to do to get out of the No-win situation. BTW, if no one has seen it, watch the newest "Star Trek" movie. The protagonist there, a young James Kirk, had to figure out a No-win situation. He reprogrammed the computer scenario. Which was a reference back to Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. But, I digress. My point is that there is no such thing as a No-win situation unless you let it happen. Take control. Do whatever you have to do to get the hostage out of the vest, alive. Then, deal with the terrorist.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
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Re: Hostage Rescue

Post by Ryan » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:45 am

Image

What is it with hostage takers and gripping people like this as a meat shield?
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Hostage Rescue

Post by tacticalguy » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:56 am

Ryan wrote:Image

What is it with hostage takers and gripping people like this as a meat shield?
All I can say is that desperation is the perfect description for an action like that. Smart and clever got up and walked out the door a LONG time ago.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)

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Re: Hostage Rescue

Post by seal236 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:10 pm

Tango is not cooperative, and will not negotiate: If this was the case he would have already blown himself up. Otherwise he is still alive because he wants something like to live.

Sending in a dog is a terrible idea. It could bite the hostage, or they all can die. And my dog is most likely worth more than the hostage in my mind. Too much is put into a dog to send it on a death mission.

First off the situation should never have had the opportunity to reach this point. Team should have been in and out before the hostage taker had time to make this happen.


Negotiations are the only realistic avenue for this scenario.

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Ryan
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Re: Hostage Rescue

Post by Ryan » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:10 am

This is true. Never initiate unless you're sure of a success with an SB. The risk vs benefit is hugely outweighed. But with hostage rescue it can be a multiplier if the dog does go for the threat, if you angle the dog off so it can see the majority of the threat, i.e. from the back, then the dog will most likely go for him/her first. Can depend how far the person is, how aware of the dogs, so on and therefore must be used wisely.


Hence the video, the reasons to split. One of the officers will probably have a narrow lane of fire onto hostage taker unless the taker hugs the corner and manipulates the hostage.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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