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Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:23 am
by Ryan
First rule of a street fight, don't fight in the street.

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:24 pm
by TLS
Speed, surprise and violence of action.

Flexability

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:17 am
by Ryan
That "SAS" acronym is too out-dated in my opinion. Lose surprise, now what? That's why articles one-up it with "Surprise or diversion" or something similar.

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:53 am
by TLS
[That "SAS" acronym is too out-dated in my opinion. Lose surprise, now what? That's why articles one-up it with "Surprise or diversion" or something similar)

Don't know about it being a SAS acronym. As for speed, surprise and violence of action being out dated i disagree, it as relevent today as it was when the first operator murmurred it and is more often as not used as a gee up or as a generalized term for the prinicples of CQB which as i have been taught as being- Speed, Surprise,Confidence, Concentration,Teamwork, Aggression.

Loose surprise on a Deliderate Action you incur an even greater risk of hostages being killed, IEDs being intiated or even just your lowly druggie preparing himself for the fight.
Now if you do loose surprise on a DA,(Hostage Rescue) you will still commit( either as an Emergency Action or rapidily intiated DA depending on the timeline of the teams progress towards their FAP) because that is your mission, On a Clan Lab, or HME lab - totally different, pull back, cordan and call, same for high risk arrest warrants.
Surprise and Diversions come under 2 different headings
Diversionsie (fuel air chaerges, sirens, etc) can aid in surprise but primarily there purpose is divert the baddies attention away from the entry points leading to complete surprise when the team/s enter.
Sound and flash grenades (stunnys) are different again and come under the heading of distractions, which leads to my favorite training point- never enter a room without a distraction.
Perhaps we could divide this subject into principles and training points?

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:12 pm
by Ryan
Perhaps, you could subdivide it into its dependency. I think they're critically dependent on increasing the chances of success especially DURING direct, immediate action missions. Deliberate and stealth on the other hand may be more methodical. SAS being Aggression by the way,, instead of Violence of Action and it's Surprise Aggression Speed: SAS. I didn't make that clear, my bad.

I didn't say it wasn't relevant either, I fully agree it is, I just think it's outdated or not as specific as I'd like. Lacking of detail. Everyone nowadays from an airsofters to those with experience use it... and for EVERY type of operation... sure because it's applicable to most but you can better yourself I believe by thinking more defined, especially about what I mentioned with surprise. Lose it now what? I hate acronyms in that sense. It's too general. Surprise OR diversion is better because it's situation dependent that allows for both sides of the spectrum, not just when you've got surprise. If you lose surprise you try regain the superiority lost, you may have a clogged fatal funnel and therefore diversion or as you say distractions is needed.

It might work for the SAS, "Who Cares Who Wins?" - They'd take a charge at anything but I'd have to take a lighter approach when necessary and learn when to switch on. Bottom dollar if you don't train without surprise and without preparation for not having it then stumbles occur. Therefore it's important to understand that having strictly surprise only in an acronym for room clearance could be poor for a combat situation.

What is included in confidence, concentration and teamwork?

But yeah we can face that doesn't apply to everyone - you may not have surprise AT ALL, the entry commitment issue you talk of. Last thing you want is make-his-mind-up-harry at the door. I agree though the principles of self-confidence, teamwork and all stated just be a focus within that, and I agree surprise in the acronym sense for 'stealth' ops should be to uphold the unknown, uphold your team not being compromised. That's a great point. It's very much a defined on the moment issue, speed may not be 'full force through the door' but you may need to slow down, snail pace and pie it out as an example. That's where I got lost with it and its general purpose becomes iffy.

I was thinking of some fundamentals, some principles needed generally and I came up with:
Infiltration - How you get in
Surprise or Diversion - Keeping the element of surprise or regaining elements for successful firefight outcomes
Aggression / Violence of Action - Aggressive approach to room clearance
Speed - Generally fast but balanced (to architectural terrain and/or threat)
Domination - Dominating the room through control of voice and person
Elimination - Eliminating threats as appropriate, including immediate threats
Securing - Securing any possible or potential threats as appropriate
Communication - Communicating as a team
Exfiltration - How you get out

Just a quick splatter of general ideas, open for criticism and change. I'd criticize straight away to say... you can't make a pretty acronym. ISASDESCE. :twisted:

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:24 pm
by Ryan
"Don't move 'tactically' in the open ground" - Thoughts on this one?

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:58 am
by jimothy_183
Depends on what you define as "tactically" in that context. It sounds like a sarcastic use of the word to me.

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:19 pm
by tacticalguy
I kinda think that statement refers to "stealth" movement. Open ground should be crossed as quickly as possible. There is no amount of quietness that's going to make up for you being caught in the open with no cover.

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:40 pm
by jimothy_183
That could possibly be what it means. But isn't there a doctrinal solution that deals with large open danger areas that involves "tactical movement"?

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:51 pm
by tacticalguy
"force commander conducts a careful route analysis, using the factors of observation, concealment, obstacles, key terrain, and avenues of approach (OCOKA). He chooses a route that maintains the security of the force while ensuring surprise. He tries to choose a route that will avoid enemy contact and speed movement."
That's the way I was taught. Now, are you referring to a hasty pursuit across open ground? I don't do those. That's when you you let your em-placed sniper team directed by surveillance rotating over-head support you, IMHO.

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:48 am
by jimothy_183
Well I was referring to the FM 3-21.8.
Crossing of Large Open Areas

3-127. If the large open area is so large that the platoon cannot bypass it due to the time needed to accomplish the mission, a combination of traveling overwatch and bounding overwatch is used to cross the large open area (Figure 3-25). The traveling overwatch technique is used to save time. The squad or platoon moves using the bounding overwatch technique at any point in the open area where enemy contact may be expected. The technique may also be used once the squad or platoon comes within range of enemy small-arms fire from the far side (about 250 meters). Once beyond the open area, the squad or platoon re-forms and continues the mission.

Image

Figure 3-25. Crossing a large open area.

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:46 pm
by tacticalguy
Okay, I see that 7-8 was replaced. We're on the same page, then. I guess when the question of crossing large open areas came up, to me, I thought it was more in the question of a CQB situation where a tango had fled out of a building. I wasn't thinking in platoon size movement terms, then.

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:06 pm
by jimothy_183
Just to clarify TG, I don't think you were wrong with what you originally said before. I was just making a point about the fact that there is a "tactical" solution to open danger areas and how the original quote posted by Ryan was possibly sarcastic in nature.

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:34 am
by tacticalguy
Gotcha! No worries, mate.

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:02 pm
by Ryan
"If you have a man down in the doorway - do not enter it"

I have heard this before. Also, "make a new doorway". What do you think?

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:59 am
by tacticalguy
Ryan wrote:"If you have a man down in the doorway - do not enter it"

I have heard this before. Also, "make a new doorway". What do you think?
Yup. Don't attempt to cross a threshold where a team member has gone down. Don't even attempt a recovery of that team member until that section is clear because they'll use that man down as a lure. Breaching charge on the wall 3-4ft either way from the door while tossing a couple of flash-bangs through the open doorway would be one solution. It would all depend on the timing required, I suppose.

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:14 am
by Ryan
And therefore I gather that's where the whole philosophy of fatal funnel comes from, as well high threat methods (including the Israeli method) in which you can break contact from the door instead of flooding a target area with operators to get shot at. Action quicker than reaction in that sense. Supported or sniper-initiated in that regard, a new set of rules--angles on from different approaches.

The Golden Rule I agree with the most! "Always keep your head on a swivel".

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:54 pm
by tacticalguy
My Golden Rules of CQB:

1.) Check, cross check and re-check. (You are never too prepared or ready.)
2.) Slow IS fast. (Never hurry, hurry=dead.)
3.) First to see, first to shoot. (Self explanatory.)
4.) The mission isn't over until we're back in the team room. (Don't relax your guard.)
5.) Always wait until after the flash-bang goes off to jump through the doorway. (Really??)
6.) Speed, Surprise and Violence of Action. (Any part of that equation missing and you could have a VERY bad day.)
7.) One well placed shot, one kill. (Not all shots are created equal. Corollary: Knocking down pop-up targets on a range isn't the same thing as knocking down armed men with kill shots.)
8.) In a weapon-retention situation, apply the "zipper" method up and down until clear. (Zipper=POA is pelvis and tracking up to the head.)
9.) Create space.
10.) Don't peek around corners. (To see anything, you have to expose at least three inches of your skull. Need I say more?) Use the mirror.

Those are a few of my personal favorites.

Post Edit: 11.) Be very sure that all members of your team are clear on the differences between dynamic and deliberate entry. Make it clear when planning it which one you're doing and what the triggers are to transition to the other one.
Post Post Edit: Forgot to add in the part about the mirror in 10).

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:52 am
by Ryan


Shoot, move, communicate.

Re: The Golden Rules of CQB

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:23 am
by tacticalguy
I think that Mr. Grey and I would have a lot to talk about that we could agree on. Good series of interviews.