spiral stairs tactics??

[perfectskin69]

any thoughts for going form upper to lower level with 2-3 man team??
i think that one man should cover from upper floor and the other 2 back to back go down the stairs(2-3 steps) and then stop an scan the place for enemy and possible covers,after that one by one move to the covers.
well thats my thinkin for that problem,wait for your response and tactics.

[Dramatikk]

I believe that the following method is the most appropriate one for clearing spiral stairs.

Stairways

Stairways that turn are tricky. First, the pointman pies and clears the landing. When he takes the first step up he also turns around to cover the floor above while moving up backwards. The second man still faces forward up the landing. The third man will follow what the second man did, and the last man will continue to cover the rear. Be careful, move up one step at a time or you'll slip and fall down on your teammates and it'll be a hilarious video on Youtube.

Source of information

Or, you could also consider this method:

Stairwell Rush

This is the most effective way of attacking up a defended stairwell. However, these shooting techniques can only be used when the ROE allow and there are known hostiles in
the stairwell—and no noncombatants in target areas. The stairwell rush is a coordinated assault up the stairwell using two to four Marines depending on the width of the stairwell. The stairwell rush technique
relies on placing an overwhelming amount of direct fire on targets or potential targets and getting up the stairwell as fast as possible. This is not a school book technique, however, our Urban Warrior experiments
showed that this is the method that produces the fewest casualties when attacking a defended stairwell. There are two types, the four man rush and the three man rush.

Four Man Rush

• Left and right outside positions covered by a SAW.
• Inside positions are two M16s
• Entire team rushes up the stairwell while placing maximum volume of fire to the front overhead and to the rear (when going up a stairwell with landings that over hang the flights of stairs.)

Three Man Rush

• Left and right outside positions covered by a SAW.
• Inside position is the single M16.

Source of information

Otherwise, you should also consider the option of throwing a DD or frag down the spiral stair before moving/ rushing down the stairs ...

Kind regards, Dramatikk.

[perfectskin69]

ok thanks nice technique for going up,but for going down i don't have the permission-access(as patrol officer) to throw grenades!!!!!unfortunatelly!!!
so any other methods for going down to a dark basement from stair like this???
thanks!!

[tacticalguy]

Dark basement at the bottom of the spiral stair? How often are you encountering this situation? If it's only every so often, I would throw chem lights down before going down. Bounce them into the corners, if possible. Going down stairs is worse than going up in my opinion because any potential threat sees you prior to you seeing them. Refer back to your first lesson; surprise, speed and violence of action. Going down the stairs, you've already lost the first component. Speed and violence of action are all that's left. I know, I know. In CQB, slow IS fast. Except when it isn't. That's my take on it. I'm going to go down the stairs as fast as I physically can to gain dominance of the basement.

[perfectskin69]

oooo chemical light very good idea,yesterday i went to a call for shop which was closed and a thief broke into the shop,when i arrived i saw that stair leading in basement and dark basement cause it was 1 oclock in the evening,fortunately we were many officers there and with a lot of flashlights we make brighter the basement and we came down fast to seach there too,the person-s how broke have left the building but that stair make me wonder...
and since i don't have access to shields,stun granades,smoke granades and other swat gear tactics are my only weapons!!!
here in greece even taser or peperspray are illegal for officers to use......
so i only have tactics and my co operator!!!

[Ryan]

Tacticalguy took the words out of my mouth. Yeah, basically you split up the problem. It's dark, we need light, what can we use or do to create some. The last point may take research, memories of a previous experience, education, etc.

It's not as simple as jumping from problem to solution, and in an unpredicted or unprepared situation you may need to improvise. You may have to think on the spot for options, but if you don't...

Flashlights, flares (which are basically chemlights so ignore this one), strobe lights or beacons. Knock down a wall if you're crazy enough.
Tactical riot shields have flashlights and are great for that high-risk purpose.

When I come across or think of a potential or known problem I like to check sources, tactical websites and equipment sellers to see what options may be available. I like to brain-tease myself with common household items, things I can use to fix these problems that come up.



There is more risk in my opinion going down into an unknown area than up to one in this particular situation. Both are bad, obviously, and exposing your top-half is also a dead risk but... You expose your lower body, normally, before you can get align and your muzzle onto the target area. Unless of course you stop every few steps to bend down to check. It is quite obvious that you are silhouetting yourself constantly too, in a danger funnel with a limited escape route, little cover and concealment.

Any lower leg wound could 'cause you to fall, limit and inhibit not only your movement but the teams too. Remember the Air France Flight 8986 hijacking? One assault team members weapon was hit, bits of his weapon broke up and flachetted themselves throughout his upper body, he fell backwards and down the de-boarding ladder. This halted the entire team, leaving them on the back foot - they instantly lost momentum. It's a real risk when it comes to these kinds of danger areas. It's basically a sub-topic of its own.



Spiral stairs are... hell. A beautiful killing ground design. How awful it is, just visually looking at the tactical flaws a team could make going up or down. Nice question. I'd agree with a grenade, flashbang or something over the top - but your 'status' restrictions are a bit strict... I mean 'permission to draw' and now this?! Break the rules, save a life.


As stated, always clear overheads like they're an 'above the head corner'.

[perfectskin69]

unfortunatelly only swat teams has access to grenades nad staff tha makes life easyer!!!
as for us street ''cops'' we have to improvise and change all those tactics cause we have to wait to shoot as first and then we shoot.

as for the stairs above basically i want to learn a search tactic to unknown enviromnet with this stairs nad not a dynamic entry with spcial equipment.a search with my jericho out of holster and other 4-5 officers who run as me to the incident that involves those stairs!!!
i know wwe have very strict laws but we have to adjust to the situation and therefor to adjust the classic house clearin tactics to our laws!!!

[Ryan]

Thanks for the feedback. Street cop improvisation, hmm! Street tactics, fight dirty. I have no real specifics, only things you could try.

So a narrow approach, angular pie, segmented search, minimal exposure, clearing presenting corners, barricade clearance, slow and methodical subacute observation, target isolation and target detection. You want to basically pie it all the way without a dynamic entry unless the situation asks for it? Dramatikk mentioned some good dynamic drills, you can use them for going UP or DOWN. It's all about method of entry and adjusting it for you.

The technicalities of assault:
- Stairs are low, you have to get lower. Change height level, hip level and muzzle/head level. This sounds random but has anyone ever tried crawling down stairs in this situation?
- Stair treads are small in width, you have to have a good foot-hold and stance to get lower in a stable platform (which may sacrifice adjustability or maneuver).
- Angles; It is a curved stair-case meaning you have to constantly assess the angles in front and behind. There are many gaps between the treads and railings in this type of stair-case. You should be stopping and scanning until the dynamic-mode hits go. A coverman, as you stated, is a good idea - especially if he or she adjusts position to cover your weak angles.
- Exterior angles; Can a buddy out-flank, peek through another window or opening to get a view?
- Visual field P1; Assess whether the suspect can see you from the landing or riser (both the same thing!). This is your most stable platform, if you are hit here and don't go forward you could be recovered. If you go forward down the stairs then it's a fight-or-die scenario. This opportunity is best for a break contact.
- Light; Does the suspect have natural night vision? Do you? (see here: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=844&p=4730 and viewtopic.php?f=2&t=711).
- Compromise; What will give away my position? Noise, light, visuals. Do I want to remain hidden (stealth) or not?
- Visual field P2; You can always use mirrors and reflective objects.
- The suspect; How close is he? Have you identified his location? Weigh up those checks and balances:- If he is close then dynamic is more applicable to take-out the threat. If he was further away, plausably barricaded then he could maintain his defensive turtle-shell outlook. Know him - he is a thief, is he armed? What does he look like? This will help in recognition.
- Firepower; As Dramatikk says, firepower is preventing casualties, can you afford to engage as you move? What is your ROE? Can you engage unknown or possible locations? But most of all, are you really ready to engage that threat, put down a good rate of fire, flanking fire and work as a team layering fire and interlocking it.
- Domination; Take control, take the aggression - you can show this in many ways such as mentioned above, firepower, and mentioned below, mental preparation. It also helps to dominate the scene, not just the individual (scene management).
- Mental preparation; Does shooting as I run down convey me as prey rather than a hunter? If you do it, make sure it's done in a 'manly' fashion. Prepare yourself to willingly participate in a risky maneuver.
- MOE; you can always breach the lower walls or ceiling above. It's a 3D world! Some Mexican SWAT/Military-mixed team spent 6 months digging a tunnel to rescue hostages, just putting it out there.
- Weapon; You own and use a pistol, it is a great for maneuverability and convenience. The problem for it is with a longer approach where accuracy and magazine count is needed. For this situation, a pistol will work just fine.
- Ignorance; Ignore all the "cons" and just go for it. It may 'ease' your mind from examining all the 'tactical wrongs', but it may seize the situation.

Using your resources:
- 4-5 Officers, I guess all with pistols and magazines. If you are in unit-cohesions you should be able to share ammunition, if not then that's a prolonged firefight problem. If you have a mixture of weaponry then pick the best role for each.
- Tactical cohesion; Do they understand the tactics you have learnt or been taught? Can you work with them on these for this situation?
- Buddy up; Buddy pairs are better than going solo. I'd try a few tricks:- Back-to-back (which protects frontal and rear arcs, can easily adjust to flanks) or try squeeze it as close as you can side-to-side or just off-set from each other ready for contact. Keep testing these theories and see where you can make it work.
- "Call Out"; Psyche them out, call them to give up!
- Spacing; Should you space out the formation or stick together like a train?
- Negotiation; What can I offer you? Except for my 9mm in your brain cavity.

The technicalities of defense:
- Entry and exits; Do you have most of the exits and entry points covered? If this stair-well is the only one that you KNOW of then you have an option to cover it and call for back-up. Area containment and security, very valuable to you as a Patrol Officer. This creates a better span of control for you and others.
- Suspect; He or she will take up a part of that room, you have to isolate and detect that specific area. Understand their mobility capabilities and where they can go. It's like playing a game of Risk. If they are in fear they will probably camp in a corner or behind a barricade, anywhere that gives their rabbit eyes a view of your entry point.
- Evacuation; Get the civilians out of there, out of any secured path of movement you have.

Hope this helps, please give us feedback. If you find a good way we'd love to hear about it.

[perfectskin69]

Thanks for the feedback. Street cop improvisation, hmm! Street tactics, fight dirty. I have no real specifics, only things you could try.

So a narrow approach, angular pie, segmented search, minimal exposure, clearing presenting corners, barricade clearance, slow and methodical subacute observation, target isolation and target detection. You want to basically pie it all the way without a dynamic entry unless the situation asks for it? Dramatikk mentioned some good dynamic drills, you can use them for going UP or DOWN. It's all about method of entry and adjusting it for you.

The technicalities of assault:
- Stairs are low, you have to get lower. Change height level, hip level and muzzle/head level. This sounds random but has anyone ever tried crawling down stairs in this situation?
- Stair treads are small in width, you have to have a good foot-hold and stance to get lower in a stable platform (which may sacrifice adjustability or maneuver).
- Angles; It is a curved stair-case meaning you have to constantly assess the angles in front and behind. There are many gaps between the treads and railings in this type of stair-case. You should be stopping and scanning until the dynamic-mode hits go. A coverman, as you stated, is a good idea - especially if he or she adjusts position to cover your weak angles.
- Exterior angles; Can a buddy out-flank, peek through another window or opening to get a view?
- Visual field P1; Assess whether the suspect can see you from the landing or riser (both the same thing!). This is your most stable platform, if you are hit here and don't go forward you could be recovered. If you go forward down the stairs then it's a fight-or-die scenario. This opportunity is best for a break contact.
- Light; Does the suspect have natural night vision? Do you? (see here: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=844&p=4730 and viewtopic.php?f=2&t=711).
- Compromise; What will give away my position? Noise, light, visuals. Do I want to remain hidden (stealth) or not?
- Visual field P2; You can always use mirrors and reflective objects.
- The suspect; How close is he? Have you identified his location? Weigh up those checks and balances:- If he is close then dynamic is more applicable to take-out the threat. If he was further away, plausably barricaded then he could maintain his defensive turtle-shell outlook. Know him - he is a thief, is he armed? What does he look like? This will help in recognition.
- Firepower; As Dramatikk says, firepower is preventing casualties, can you afford to engage as you move? What is your ROE? Can you engage unknown or possible locations? But most of all, are you really ready to engage that threat, put down a good rate of fire, flanking fire and work as a team layering fire and interlocking it.
- Domination; Take control, take the aggression - you can show this in many ways such as mentioned above, firepower, and mentioned below, mental preparation. It also helps to dominate the scene, not just the individual (scene management).
- Mental preparation; Does shooting as I run down convey me as prey rather than a hunter? If you do it, make sure it's done in a 'manly' fashion. Prepare yourself to willingly participate in a risky maneuver.
- MOE; you can always breach the lower walls or ceiling above. It's a 3D world! Some Mexican SWAT/Military-mixed team spent 6 months digging a tunnel to rescue hostages, just putting it out there.
- Weapon; You own and use a pistol, it is a great for maneuverability and convenience. The problem for it is with a longer approach where accuracy and magazine count is needed. For this situation, a pistol will work just fine.
- Ignorance; Ignore all the "cons" and just go for it. It may 'ease' your mind from examining all the 'tactical wrongs', but it may seize the situation.

Using your resources:
- 4-5 Officers, I guess all with pistols and magazines. If you are in unit-cohesions you should be able to share ammunition, if not then that's a prolonged firefight problem. If you have a mixture of weaponry then pick the best role for each.
- Tactical cohesion; Do they understand the tactics you have learnt or been taught? Can you work with them on these for this situation?
- Buddy up; Buddy pairs are better than going solo. I'd try a few tricks:- Back-to-back (which protects frontal and rear arcs, can easily adjust to flanks) or try squeeze it as close as you can side-to-side or just off-set from each other ready for contact. Keep testing these theories and see where you can make it work.
- "Call Out"; Psyche them out, call them to give up!
- Spacing; Should you space out the formation or stick together like a train?
- Negotiation; What can I offer you? Except for my 9mm in your brain cavity.

The technicalities of defense:
- Entry and exits; Do you have most of the exits and entry points covered? If this stair-well is the only one that you KNOW of then you have an option to cover it and call for back-up. Area containment and security, very valuable to you as a Patrol Officer. This creates a better span of control for you and others.
- Suspect; He or she will take up a part of that room, you have to isolate and detect that specific area. Understand their mobility capabilities and where they can go. It's like playing a game of Risk. If they are in fear they will probably camp in a corner or behind a barricade, anywhere that gives their rabbit eyes a view of your entry point.
- Evacuation; Get the civilians out of there, out of any secured path of movement you have.

Hope this helps, please give us feedback. If you find a good way we'd love to hear about it.

oooo too many thoughts too little time!!!
in my occasion the call to 911 said broken window to shop and maybe there are still inside somone nothing else no info on how many are inside if they are inside what or if they had any kind of weapon equippment etc and time is 1.30 am,our equip are handguns (usp-glock-walter and mine jericho baby eagle!!!) from 9mm to .40,low trainning to this situations for th most partners and some of them they dont even have a flashlight with them!!!
the shop is in corner of street an have a wall-glasses which means that i see clearly from outside inside and vice versa,the only problem was that stairwaywhich had no light and no info for the basement how big it was what it had inside if the basement had doors etc.
by the way from the result there was nonone there cause they didnt find any money so they left the other shop in good shape
and there i begun to wonder what if was someone in basement!!!
and thats the reason for the topic,we clear the stairs as i wrote in th beginning but if a gunshot would heard then i don't know the result of the incident cause oficers who has 10+years in LE they don't remember tactics and they don't train at them they only count on expirience,from accurasy we are all in mid level(include my self) so you see ther are other external problems.
as for the tacics only(thats the topic!!) i think as i said before one man as cover and other two as you mentioned back to back to have 360 cover if possible!!!

[Ryan]

Sounds like a tactical headache... not only your Department but the holistic Greek Police's view on their role and commitments.
They should be training, mentally or physically, on a daily basis for their job. If they don't, forget them, it proves to me you have little support, so you should do the best you can to make yourself a holistic Police Officer, ready for these situations and toughened to carry them out with minimal assistance.

Surprise your buddies and partner with a Christmas gift... a flashlight!

You used the full glass panes to the best of your advantage for visual focus, good job. That's a start.
You even identified the unknown areas and the high risk area, your to be area of responsibility.
You came up with the back-to-back and coverman idea as a tactical tool.
You're not bad at this!


Yes, I know they (the 911 Reporters) did not give very good intelligence.
But...

Broken window to a shop tells me a few things:
I believe it was a 'they', an individual would be less likely.
1) They were aggressive in their approach
2) They do not care about 'going quietly' or 'stealth', which MAY possibly mean they are untactical and untrained
3) They sound like common thieves looking for a quick buck (druggies?)
4) No money or items stolen means either they lost their nerve, got spooked or were inexperienced; or a mixture of all!
5) If they were searching solely for money it reinforces the plausability of them being druggies or homeless, having no transport options, places to put things or people to sell them to
6) Situations like this will probably happen again, be it in the same area or near by; prepare for the next event

You may be able to tell the basement size from the upper level size. This isn't a perfect way for potential but a good base-line to layout at least to where the stairs go and may spindle off to. The stairway may have lead to something bigger or complex, or inter-connecting spaces. Now that would of been a nightmare. From that situation, wait it out and call for back-up. Put down 'navigation aid markers' like chemlights or easily identifiable objects (tape, etc).

Remember this: If you clear the high-risk area, such as you getting to the bottom of the spiral stair-case. HOLD IT. If you call for back-up, try not to back-out unless you absolutely have to. Re-clearing an area like that is very risky, if not riskier than before.

I thought it would be Law Enforcement SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) to clear the identified building before declaring it safe or presuming the suspects have left.

[perfectskin69]

well i bellive too that junkies or unexpireinced thieves done it and yes as for x mas present i belive a flashlight and extra usp mag should be a good gift!!hahaha!!!
as for the tactical side of topic i train via airsoft guns in a lot of situations but this problem i never found it on airsoft or in 3 years on street policing!!!
i dealed with classic staircases in 4-5 floor buildings and as a younger in LE i was behind the ''veterans'' so expirience was little!!!
thanks for your time and analysis was very usefull and i study it again with anyone of my department who has tactical appetite for this thimgs that will save his-her life ine day!!

[Ryan]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add. If the Call Out doesn't work, try the Pressure Pot:- viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1448&p=4410. It just involves keeping constant pressure on them, call outs, eyes on their area, psyche them out.

And just out of interest, how did you deal with classic staircases?
A/S is a problem for these things unless you find a facility that does a mixture of types of objects and rooms.
But, you will still come across things you have never encounters, a factor of life.

[perfectskin69]

with classic stairs i put one man as safe on first step then second man goes up to top of corner first man pass him and riches top or the back to back tech we said earlyer
everything i saw on power point in here!!!
and on airsoft used technics which work!!!

[Ryan]

Ah I see, a bounding movement. Like an internal leapfrog.

[Ryan]

Or, you could also consider this method:

Stairwell Rush

What are the principles and techniques involved in a rush Dramatikk?
Many teams use dynamic "rush tactics" for pure speed to gain the advantage.
I.e. you see an enemy 5 meters away duck into a doorjamb, you rush on it and take him out.

There are many points in this where mistakes can occur or will occur.
Do you have any more details on that?


You can kind of see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc2cxo13 ... ure=relmfu*. A quick-reaction response to intelligence, no real plan but relying on oneself and team buddies. They get to the front gate, knock on it and call them out. Split and strafe either ends of the compound for entry points. Use the least likely to be covered point, the side door. Three makes entry, stop, limited penetration, call in the others when it's relatively safe. Keep moving and rushing through-out the compound with individual clears.

*

There are many other references out there better than this one.

[Dramatikk]

Or, you could also consider this method:

Stairwell Rush

What are the principles and techniques involved in a rush Dramatikk?

Well, Ryan, I believe the name "Rush" speaks for it self. The main principle of this method is the usage of speed. However, the basic principles of CQB still stands:

- Suprise
- Speed
- Aggression/ Violence of Action

And for better understanding of the "Rush" technique, here is the easy description of this unorthodox clearing technique:

The stairwell rush is a coordinated assault up the stairwell using two to four Marines depending on the width of the stairwell. The stairwell rush technique
relies on placing an overwhelming amount of direct fire on targets or potential targets and getting up the stairwell as fast as possible. This is not a school book technique, however, our Urban Warrior experiments
showed that this is the method that produces the fewest casualties when attacking a defended stairwell.

Source of information

Kind regards, Dramatikk.

[Ryan]

Excellent mate.

What do you think of stopping in a stairwell? (For open-top stairwell) If big enough and so permits some Armies teach stopping to cover the threat area as people move infront of you, the gun is facing upwards so no risk of FF. They also teach stopping for any attic openings and what not. It's kind of like a mini-bounding techniques upon stairs. But stairs are a huge FFF and sometimes facing the opposite direction is bad, when you're on the outer-lane you're easily angled and can be taken out.

It's used if there is a switch-back (landing and bends 180) in the stairs, you cling to the walls so you have covermen covering danger areas.

[perfectskin69]

i've heard of this tactic but with my equipment it's not easy cause my only protection as duty man is the vest on torso area,
i've done this on airsoft simulation practice with my partners and it worked on paper targets!!!
although in my case only search tactics with a lot of big fat walls for cover will work!!!,but thats a good techinque if we are 5-6 people and we all know this tactic!!!

[Ryan]

5-6 on a stairwell, squishy. Nah that's all good. I love CQB - "Don't bunch up" but you find areas you will bunch up on. Any tips from experience? I.e. don't walk backwards. Always try walk off on an angle, 3/4 of the backwards is better than fully backwards.

Check if the staircase is OPEN or CLOSED. I.e. open (split-level landing) has a landing above you, rear as you enter it, probably with railings. Closed is no threat and you don't have to check behind you. Exposing yourself to the switch-back you can pie it and move to the corner to cover. So the first landing is the immediate landing, the second on the next level being the secondary landing. The presenting corners must be cleared, switch-back maneuvered before you move to the secondary landing where a coverman on the immediate can cover the railings if OPEN and the team can pie or cross-cover, etc!