BGs Shooting Through Walls

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El Freddio
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BGs Shooting Through Walls

Post by El Freddio » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:48 am

We all know even a 9mm can go through wallboard/sheetrock, which is common for wall material ( http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm ). Now a SWAT team can't shoot through a wall (concerns for hostages etc) but Johnny Gangbanger and Mr. Methhead don't give a damn, and just want to get away from the cops. So what would you do if your team came under fire from someone shooting through a wall? What about a military setting, would you do something different than you would from a law enforcement/counter terrorism one?

This has happened before, and sadly, two Oakland SWAT officers were killed in 2009 by such tactics :cry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_shoot ... e_officers

Also, another incident on this link discusses with the subject in great detail (and other entry issues). http://www.lawofficer.com/article/train ... ted-develo
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Re: BGs Shooting Through Walls

Post by tacticalguy » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:27 pm

Good question! Withdraw to the perimeter and wait 'em out, would be my first response. Officer safety is the issue. There is inherent risk in law enforcement. Even more on a tactical response team but, there is a level of acceptable risk that was just crossed over. What you can ask a military tactical team to accept is generally different than a civilian LE tactical team. The Army has "acceptable casualties" built into every military op. LE doesn't.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
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Re: BGs Shooting Through Walls

Post by Admin » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:10 pm

The military way depending of the scenario, could be a frag grenade or a fall back.
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Re: BGs Shooting Through Walls

Post by tacticalguy » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:51 pm

Admin wrote:The military way depending of the scenario, could be a frag grenade or a fall back.
Absolutely, sir. Probably both at the same time, frag to cover the fallback.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
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Re: BGs Shooting Through Walls

Post by jimothy_183 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:11 am

tacticalguy wrote:The Army has "acceptable casualties" built into every military op. LE doesn't.
Well I thik LE will have it too in operations such as hostage rescue or active shooters.
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Re: BGs Shooting Through Walls

Post by Ryan » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:41 am

Nice question. :)

I don't know, my first reaction would be get down to prone or crouch or get to cover. Sudden adrenaline hit, on the already huge adrenaline rush. Sympathetic nervous system response - sweating, possibly shaking, head out of control (Helmet fire!). If you can - assess the shooters angle on you and shot height. Can work out line of shot and therefore which room they are in, or examine the wall (glance, not CSI crap!) to understand which one they are penetrating. If this is all too much brain fuzz during the quick-fuss then automatic reactions that you have been trained on, and that you believe will work are best (as mentioned before).

Grenade is an almost automatic option. CDO in Afghanistan came across a similar situation, innocents died due to their use of grenades to quell the insurgent who was hiding in the room, shooting through the wall and using the innocent people are human shields. (Reference: http://www.theage.com.au/national/digge ... 1ceu3.html)

If you do back-up, then you can isolate that room by controlling its entry points, windows or say a hallway, assault it from another direction or use bigger firepower. This happened in the Run the Rabbit thread in the example I posted and the emergency response to knowing the immediate threat was in the room, there was little place to back-up and you had a partner there - "Rabbit!" and he ran in, partner in pursuit, and killed the insurgent. So you have emergency options, less survivable, more risky... most of those emergency options for me involve going in the room! My first response, if applicable, would be to back out of there.
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Re: BGs Shooting Through Walls

Post by badger » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:09 pm

LE don't have acceptable casualties, not in my country.

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Re: BGs Shooting Through Walls

Post by jimothy_183 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:12 pm

Well just to be clear I was talking about the officers rescuing the hostages/innocent civilians not the actual hostages/civilians being "acceptable casualties". But maybe I am wrong in all respects?
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Re: BGs Shooting Through Walls

Post by badger » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:15 pm

Im talking about officers too.

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Re: BGs Shooting Through Walls

Post by Ryan » Mon May 28, 2012 11:41 am

You're really put under the pressure to win then badger... :| No casualties is a successful operation but a hard fought one in these situations.
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Re: BGs Shooting Through Walls

Post by Ryan » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:31 am

CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: BGs Shooting Through Walls

Post by El Freddio » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:04 pm

Thanks to everyone for the comments so far. IT's been very interesting :D
From the Armchair Commando :P

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Re: BGs Shooting Through Walls

Post by Ryan » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:20 pm



"CQB - Shooting Through Walls


Undoubtedly an extremely controversial topic, we used to work it routinely when I was working SWAT. It involves the concept of shooting an adversary directly through an interior wall. The tactic has been used by bad guys many times. Just do a search on Google for "shooting through walls". It is a viable special tactic and you must understand its advantages to you as well as how it may be used against you.


For example, your partner is moving into a room and takes fire at the door from the extreme left side of the room. Solution - bring up your rifle or pistol and shoot from the area adjacent to the door - to the extreme left area of the room at face/upper chest level, then lowering your muzzle to where a man may go if he takes a knee, bring your shots back toward the starting point.

Think of writing a long "C" with your shots.



I can see the Fudds wringing their hands in abject terror and worry. I do not write for them. I write for you so that, when you get tested in a gunfight, you will have the tools to prevail. Do not get sidelined by the low standards of others. What is needed -

1). Certainty that the adversary is in the room alone. The only thing worse than missing a shot on a bad guy is shooting a non-combatant. But lets think about that. For the SWAT guy...your entire Team is behind you and your intell is that the bad guy is alone in the house. Or for the homeowner...your entire family is behind you and the only other possible occupants in your house are hostiles. In either case, you are good to go. Hesitation kills.

2). The ability to penetrate the interior wall. Many gun writers get orgasmic about limited penetration yet they miss the mark like a 3 year old at an airport restroom. You want penetration. This is easily done with anything anyone would care to carry on a sling or in a holster. Just stay away from all the low penetration stuff.



Note - Furniture may affect performance.

3). An understanding of human nature. When shots are fired, nobody is going to stand around in some goofy weaver stance or in any kind of position. Look at the youtube footage of gunfights. People will move. It is very likely that the man who tries to kill you will run into a room...or at least run behind cover. Understand that this will happen and plan to counter it. The matter is not simply shooting through walls but also shooting through his cover."

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.p ... ough-Walls

"C-technique on penetrating known enemy locations behind walls. Line or diagonal technique for unknown, moving from stood to prone locations. Suppression command given."
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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