Transition from right to left hand, right to left shoulder

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Ryan
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Transition from right to left hand, right to left shoulder

Post by Ryan » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:40 am

Would you first of all transition from the right hand to left hand, and right to left shoulder to get the upperhand on a room, and if so how would you?


1:19 I was watching this and just thought, would you? This guy keeps his right hand (changing hand position) on but changes shoulder. And is that why teams mix it up strategically with lefties?
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by Dramatikk » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:41 am

To answer you're first question, Ryan. If you can switch from right to left in a fast, controlled manner, and in addition to this also feel a comfort in switching from left to right. Then, yes, this is a tactical advantage for you and you're team, and this should also be taken into consideration when in the planning process.

When it comes to how the transition is done, I can not give you any good answers. This because I have not done enough training in these types of transition to know what works the best ... And to be honest ... My left hand shooting is horrible. :oops:

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)

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Ryan
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by Ryan » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:07 am

Thanks for the reply Dramatikk...

I suppose it wouldn't really matter if you have a smaller cqb weapon like the MP5. Too easy to control but stuff like the M4 it would have to be considered. And going into a room to the right as a rightie you are showing more of yourself before getting the muzzle around.
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by geryban » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:30 am

hand transition is all about practicing. Learn to aiming really effective with "support" eye is more difficult, but not imposible. Important: train with full equipement. Do it without noise, and do it in a good time. Its a good stuff for entry and for hallway issues in some types of ops. Not for all, but you have to keep the chance and ability for it. Dont use if it not gives a real advantage for you. (i think about sling and equipement stuffs here, and about what type of ops, clearing or entry do you do. The biggest gold sentence again: make a decision). be carefull with your equipement in your top of your vest if U use the technique, keep place for it.
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by tacticalguy » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:37 pm

Ryan wrote:Would you first of all transition from the right hand to left hand, and right to left shoulder to get the upperhand on a room, and if so how would you?


1:19 I was watching this and just thought, would you? This guy keeps his right hand (changing hand position) on but changes shoulder. And is that why teams mix it up strategically with lefties?
I had just had another issue with this video. Not too long after it first starts, there is a room clearing in what looks like a school. Two officers with carbines push the door open and there's a masked subject. He obeys commands and comes to them while his fellow subject loiters in the background. The two officers both grab one of his wrists to pull him clear of the door and their weapons are pointed down. I had a real issue with this scene. Tactically, that was a mess. They had a subject in the doorway, silhouetted, while another subject they had no control over and no cover on wondered around in the background as the two primary officers pointed their weapons down. If any of my guys ever tried to fly that one by me, I would have kicked their asses. Just my opinion.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by Ryan » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:57 am

Yeah agreed tactical guy.

The grip and technique they used is CSM - Counter Supine Method.

"Henk Iversen introduced it to quite a few people. It gives shooters and extra point of contact with the magazine against the forearm, and causes less stress on the shoulders and wrist for some people. Its also very compact and stable. Most guys switch to it after being introduced to it, but for some guys like me, it just doesn't work out bio-mechanically. Since I don't use it, I call it the CSM- Cock Sucker Method." - IACT Tactical.

This guys pretty solid for other things, I guess the videos don't promote him well. I notice that with a lot of videos and companies... I think 'Why would you post them, if I can see mistakes can't you?'. :lol:

I also asked him about how to adapt it for the L85A2 and F88SA2 type weapons - bullpup - you could do it, if you want to lose half your teeth due to the cocking handle, so I asked what's a good way around that. Also asked about the cons of spent cartridges in your face haha. We'll see.

Kind of asked this question ages ago out of boredom! Hand transition, shoulder transition if time is applicable in my opinion. A leftie clearing a left hard corner means over-exposure and slower to get the muzzle free of obstacles to fire. All teams should have a leftie, now I'm discriminating, aren't I? 8) They should have shorties too! :lol:

Anyways, it's all about side relationships and how one side can be better than the other.
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by tacticalguy » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:51 pm

Ryan,
I was taught to use either hand for shooting. This didn't come natural to me. I had to practice it thousands of times to become comfortable. Once it was, transitioning from left to right and back again became second nature.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
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The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)

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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by Ryan » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:17 am

That's true. I like the way they practice in this video, in the other parts they do it really fast, moving from room to room.





It's also taught to shoulder our weapon away from the wall to allow for greater maneuverability.
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by jimothy_183 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:01 am

It's a risk vs reward thing. Reward is you get safer exposure to threat, risk is you might lose the BG while your switching over.

I've been told by someone who shall remain anonomous that in his experience there have been times where he switched and landed a perfect shot on the BG and others where the BG got away because of the extra time it took to switch.
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by Ryan » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:43 pm


Can fire without getting his by brass. Nice!
Brass deflector on the Steyr A3, nice choice. ;) Pretty sure that isn't stock (Austeyr F88SA3).
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

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"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by Ryan » Thu May 09, 2013 8:13 am

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=595175927173767

Another good demo of hand transition with the L85 and Steyr AUG (F88).

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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by Ryan » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:16 am

After reading a book by Mark Donaldson, VC, called "The Crossroads" he mentions the importance of shoulder transitions. In one such firefight they were going to clear an outhouse, ANA first. They had taught the ANA shoulder transitions for every angle they come across, to lessen the exposure of their upper body but also allow that side of the room to be cleared quicker. I.e. A full-left corner fed can be cleared quicker by a right-pocketed weapon set-up rather than left -- saves a second. The ANA soldier failed to do this and his upper body on the exposing angle got hit first, then they [The Taliban] preceded to shoot his body laying down in the doorway until it did not move anymore.
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by DareTactical » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:56 am

I personally would not use right to left hand transitions but would use shoulder transitions exclusively, keeping primary hand config. With bullpups the shoulder transition is easy to do, only thing to worry about is the brass and hot gases. With short ARs like the M4/C8 shoulder transition is fairly easy with the stock half extended. I have never used a full length AR with a fixed stock (m16),or a G3A3, so i guess these sort of rifles are where right to left hand transitions are necessary.

Most of you know that in CQB you should shoot with both eyes open. One of the more significant issues with transition is with sighting, as a lot of shooters have a dominant eye. In my case, like with most shooters, this is my right eye.

A neat trick to quickly switch to left as the dominant eye for a short period: Focus on sight and then wink ur right eye for a split second, the image in ur left eye should remain dominant for a few seconds as your brain slowly transitions back to right eye dominance (should give you enough time to pie a corner). Repeat again when needed. (Should work other way if you're left eye dominant)

With a parallax-free holosight or reflex sight, it is much easier. Shouldering the weapon on either side will make it difficult for the opposite side eye to see the reticle (which is a good thing). So when you see two superimposed images (one from each eye), you know the one with the visible reticle is the side where the weapon is and therefore is your leading side (assuming you shoulder transitioned to the appropriate side). See Bindon Aiming Concept (BAC).
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by DareTactical » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:39 pm

I've heard (and seen in videos) that Israelis generally do not use side transitions. Not even shoulder transitions when using the Tavor TAR-21. Anyone got any info on the reasoning behind this?

I'm just surprised seeing as the Israelis have been pioneers in the field of Urban warfare and CQB, and I feel that shoulder transitions help minimise exposure greatly.
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by Ryan » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:57 pm

What source was that? I'm unsure if they do. They might be stuck with the dogma that you can't with bullpups (which is bollocks).

Anyway I came up with two categories: Retained and Non-retained Shoulder Transitions. Retained meaning you retain firing hand on the weapon during the transition, non-retained meaning you have to take the firing hand away from the handgrip and trigger/safety control.
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by DareTactical » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:44 pm

Ryan wrote:What source was that? I'm unsure if they do. They might be stuck with the dogma that you can't with bullpups (which is bollocks).
Actually Ryan, I believe it was you who pointed this out a while ago in one of the youtube videos which brought it to my attention. I can't find the specific one but here are examples from Caliber 3 (run by active & reserve IDF Special Forces soldiers), from Project Gecko run by Eliran Fieldboy (ex Duvdevan), and from Cherries Covert Ops run by Aaron Cohen (also ex Duvdevan).

Caliber 3

0:34 onwards

Caliber 3

Left handed shooter who does not transition to his right.

Project Gecko

1:56 onwards

Cherries

0:40 onwards
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by Ryan » Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:19 pm

I think it was when we were talking about the Israeli stance where they occupy half the door, often sticking their legs out far. Hmm, wonder what their ideas are around shoulder transitions. Will ask Eli on Skype next time I talk to him.
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by DareTactical » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:07 pm

Great! Very interested to hear what he has to say and what his preferences are.

As for your designation for "Retained" and "Unretained" transitions, how is this different from the comparison between keeping primary fire control hand vs switching to weak hand?
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by Ryan » Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:46 am

Well you can engage at any point in the shoulder transition. The Counter-Supine Method is a retained shoulder transition. It's even used in limited entries from the doorjamb because it's quick and allows you to shoot on the fly.
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Re: Transition from right to left hand, right to left should

Post by DTas » Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:03 pm

I'll quote my answer to DareTactical to this thread.
Well, the simplest answer is no, none of the IDF units use shoulder transitions.
The idea behind it is that it would take too much time and ammo to train someone to do shoulder transitions and to shoot effectively.
Also, there is much emphasize on the mental readiness to recieve contact, that means never looking backwards, always having your eyes on the threat you cover etc, shoulder transitions kind of contradict that.
Also, when engaging from the weak side, i personally was taught and taught my guys to place the stock a bit closer to the center of the chest, this way it's a bit easier to avoid being too exposed.

Another small thing, as most of the CQB guys are taught mostly immediate entry, which treats houses as cardboard, why put so much emphasis on not being exposed?

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