Penetration or quick-peak

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kUsling
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Penetration or quick-peak

Post by kUsling » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:53 pm

BACKGROUND
My colleges on my unit is asking me for directions and advice. Were I work the SWAT is not always near and sometimes we have to quickly enter apartments to end sudden and massive violence, like domestic violence etc. To smash a door in in all haste and then do a slow search with a search-function and a securing-function (it takes a while :-/ ) is not a good answer.

My colleges want to know a good, fast entry-tecnique to use in the above scenarios were we have to enter and find bad guy quick because we have no time wating for the SWAT.


Conditions to consider:
We are always working at least two and two and sometimes up to six.

We are not working in fixed teams. We are up to 20 in my unit working together in different constellations.

Sometimes we also work with officers from other units.

Usually we do not know the layout of the apartment before we enter and rarely have time to check it out on beforehand.

The first surprise is probably over because we either have had a locksmith open the door or we have used crowbars and hammers...

Firearms is rarely used in Sweden, and very rarely against police. The most used weapon is different sorts of knifes, but they also are very rarely used against policemen. Thankfully!


QUESTION
What is your advice in this situation?


I have two solutions:
Solution 1: Penetration
What I am thinking about is doing a 2-man penetration clearing every room of the apartment. If we are three the third and last man will stay outside the first room cleared and watch nr 1 and nr 2s back outside the corridore (almost like leap frog).

Anybody here using penetration flood as dynamic entry and have advice or thoughts?

It seems to work better than wall flood in apartments with furniture.


Solution 2: Quick-peak
Another way might be to enter the apartment and use quick-peaks (yes I still am very fond of quick-peaks =) for the rooms.


Jack
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Post by Jack » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:07 pm

OK. Just so we a clear. You are using firearms, but most of the people you encounter are not?

kUsling
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Post by kUsling » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:13 am

Jake wrote:OK. Just so we a clear. You are using firearms, but most of the people you encounter are not?
In the very great majority of cases that is true yes. However that is nothing we can count on to be true always. You can sometimes encounter people with firearms in Sweden though it is not unsual.

I am not in a SWAT-team, I'm just an ordinary patrol-officer but we too sometimes has to enter apartments and find bad guys, armed or not, quickly and safely. That is why I am asking...

kUsling
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Post by kUsling » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:46 am

Here is what I think and why I choose the way I did:

Limited penetration:
Pro:
- Seems good for new and lesser trained officers.
- Keeps you out of harms way.
- Two is enough for carrying it out.

Cons:
- Might be a bitte slower than other techniques
- You still has to enter the room.


Systematic:
Pro:
- Seems good for new and lesser trained officers.
- Keeps you out of harms way.
- Two is enough for carrying it out.

Cons:
- Might be a bitte slower than other techniques.
- Must pass fatal funnel, dangerous if there is no door.
- You still has to enter the room.


2-man Wall flood
Pro:
- Predetermined AOR
- Seems quicker than the other two.

Cons:
- Might be difficult in furnitured areas.
- Seems you have to be a pretty well-trained team to accomplish.


2-man Penetration
Pro:
- Easier when furniture along the walls.
- Clear AOR
- Seems pretty quick.

Con:
- You are exposed the middle of the room.
- Can be outflanked.

2-man immidiate threat
Pro:
- Quick.

Cons:
- Seems you have to be a pretty well-trained team.
- I think it is good to have some kind of basic plan so you know were to go and why and so that your partner (nr 2) also knows...

Leap-frog
Seems like a good way of doing things when you are at least for people. In my world it might be working when you are three as well, though not as good. If let's say you clearing an apartment with lots of rooms and you are only three or four people I like the idea of the third or forth person not entering the room but has AOR down the hallway for example.


Conclusion:
The Limited and Systematic seems a bit slow and you still has to enter the room anyway. Depending on the skill of the officers they might be pretty good..

The wall-flood seems good if it wasn't for the probability of furniture against the wall.

The penetration seems better than wall-flood because of no furniture.

Leap-frog seems like a good technique when you are more personel.

Imidiate threat seems quick but it seems that you have to train a lot more for it. Time I don't I think we have...


I would like to have something that basically works when you are two officers. If you add more the can provide cover for the first two.
That seems to me like a pretty good solution for KISS. Leap-frog seems like a good way of using the other two not entering the room.


I hope I am not coming across like a know-it-all allthough I am writing pretty much and has opinions. My meaning is not to smash anybody on their fingers... I am just interested in learning.

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Post by Admin » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:39 pm

I like that people have an opinion instead of just adopting a tactic that other teams use,
Cqb-team can only guide and help you, the only way to really find out what is best for you is to meet your fellow officers and train some scenarios to see what work for you and what technique you find most simple to use. It might be a new technique that cqb-team doesn’t know about.
Try to take some hints from Jake he has a lot of experience in this topic.

Jack
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Post by Jack » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:06 am

I don't think that one tactic is going to be a magic pill for you and your situation.

Weapon grabs and weapon retention should be a major concern. If a bad guy is likely to shoot you, he is more than likely going to do it with the weapon that you are carrying. Avoid dynamic entries and immediate threat tactics. These tactics are labor intensive, and leave you in close proximity to the threat, which increases the chances of him attempting a weapon grab and you not having anybody around to help you.

Distance and staying together is your friend. Call people out of buildings, interview them and determine what dangers are inside before entering. Go slow, make sure all the angles are covered, quite possibly limited penetration would be the best tactic.

Train a lot on weapon retention. Also train on shoot/no shoot decisions when it comes to weapon grabs, and attacks from weapons other than guns, such as knives, bats, and so on.

Also don't skip over weapon's safety. The second most likely way you will get shot is through "friendly fire". Set a high standard for weapons safety and handling.

Jack
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Post by Jack » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:02 am

kUsling. Have you tried anything and how has it worked for you?

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Re: Penetration or quick-peak

Post by Ryan » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:28 am

2-man penetration with 3rd as back-up, why not? 3rd man on support to help clear if needed or pull out injured.

At first I thought you meant penetrate the wall or peak by it and I put:

Mixture of both? You can use endoscopes to look around corners, quick-peak without exposing your head.


:lol:
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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