clearing a corner

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Jack
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clearing a corner

Post by Jack » Tue May 06, 2008 2:53 am

Clearing a corner may sound simple, but it is a skill that must be mastered and perfected, because it will get used so much. I think that there is a lot more to learn about this basic skill than people realize. What I am talking about is "slicing the pie" or an "angled search" what ever you want to call it.

Do any of you guys train on this? If so how? And how would you teach somebody else to do it?

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Post by jimothy_183 » Tue May 06, 2008 4:01 am

Me and my team use the term "pie". How we do it is when we form up on a corner the first man will call to second man to "pie the corner" and so the second man will do so by moving around and clearing the corner while the first man is providing security to the front so the second man does not get shot in the side.

I consider this to be a safer technique to be used in stealth but I wanted to ask what other techniques are out there suitable for dynamic mode. Such as when your team needs to move quickly and clear corners faster besides just doing the above technique faster than in stealth mode.

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Post by Admin » Tue May 06, 2008 3:48 pm

When dealing with corners there are basically two ways to go stealth and dynamic
The two techniques I have learned are linked below.

When training this, basically 2-4 operators were put on either side of a little house with weapons loaded with FX. On a signal they started to clear there way around the 4 corners of the house, knowing that the operator on the other side also started hunting and had two ways to go around the house. When contact was made, the operator first hit with FX lost, and is rewarded with 5 push ups. This is a good way to learn to stay quiet, and be as little a target as possible when going around a corner
http://www.cqb-team.com/High-Lowe.html
http://www.cqb-team.com/Pie-Slice.html

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Post by Jack » Tue May 06, 2008 10:31 pm

I don't think that you can really pie a corner fast. Sure you can move fast, keep your gun pointed towards the corner and clear it. But I don't think that this is the same thing as pieing.

To me pieing the corner means first, figuring out how far from the corner you want to be before you start your pieing technique. This is sometimes dictated by wall and other objects in the room, but generally you want to put yourself at a "ballistic advantage". You want to maximize the weapon system that you have and hopefully make it difficult for the bad guy to use his weapon system. For instance you move away from the corner as you pie it, because you have a gun and if the bad guy doesn't, you want to make it hard for him to grab yours. By staying away from the corner you make him travel to you in order for him to get his hands on the weapon. The further he has to travel, the more time you have to complete the OODA loop and respond to his actions. This puts you at an advantage.

If you are caring a pistol, you will start pieing the corner at a distance that you feel comfortably shooting at. It might be four, seven, ten yards or more. I have responded to burglary calls with my M4 and cleared the outside corner of the building from about twenty yards away. If there had been a bad guy waiting around the corner with a pistol, it would not have been a good day for him, because I put my self at a ballistic advantage. If I would have been using my handgun, I would have been closer, because if he would have had a rifle and I was clearing it at 20 yards with a pistol, I would have been in trouble.

Granted sometimes you have to clear corners at a close distance, but sometimes you don't.

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Post by Jack » Sat May 10, 2008 9:22 pm

When I clear a corner, I will lean out, then take a couple of steps to let my feet catch up. Then repeat as necessary. Dose anyone else do this?

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Post by jimothy_183 » Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:05 am

Jake wrote:When I clear a corner, I will lean out, then take a couple of steps to let my feet catch up. Then repeat as necessary. Dose anyone else do this?
One question first, how much are you leaning out when pieing the corner?
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Post by jimothy_183 » Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:46 am

I have an idea for an individual corner clearing technique for when your in a hurry like as if your in dynamic mode. As usual this technique is not as safe as the stealthy pie but is faster. This technique is derived from the high-low.

Now my idea is this:

When you move up to a corner you keep a distance of about 1 - 1.5 metres away from the corner and move around the corner to the point where you've cleared about 45 degrees of the corner whilst still keeping the same distance. At this point you then quickly lean out to clear the rest of the corner.

This technique will not work if you are too far from the corner as it will just turn back into the pieing technique as you won't be able to clear the corner completely when you lean out and will have to take another step to finish clearing.




Situations where this could become useful is when your by yourself and you need to move quickly through the structure your in and might not have time to pie the corner.

Another would be when your in a two man team that is also in a hurry but one man might have to cover the rear leaving the other man to clear the corner himself.
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Post by KJ » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:04 pm

Jake wrote:When I clear a corner, I will lean out, then take a couple of steps to let my feet catch up. Then repeat as necessary. Dose anyone else do this?
i do the same thing when i pie a room lean then let the feet catch up it works very well
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Post by birddog » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:45 pm

jimothy_183 wrote:
Jake wrote:When I clear a corner, I will lean out, then take a couple of steps to let my feet catch up. Then repeat as necessary. Dose anyone else do this?
One question first, how much are you leaning out when pieing the corner?
Just enough to get a sight picture.
They say that hard work never killed anyone, but why take that chance ?

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Quick-peak

Post by kUsling » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:14 am

Hello!

Being new to this forum and CQB I would like to ask a question.

Where I work, when we search a building usually we have a search-function and a cover-function (we usually work two-and two). The search-function does quick-peaks to check for bad guys around corners and through doors (to clear rooms) while the cover-function is covering the areas the search-function have not or yet cannot have control of.
This is for slow searches of buildings, not dynamic ones.


With the background of that a pie-slicing technique offers you at best 50% (the bad guy is as likely to see you as you see him) then why do you not use the quick-peak when in dynamic entrys and dynamic searches?

When I read the tactical guide it said that the bad guy can fire against the officer through the wall when you have done quick-peak. However I think that that risk exists in the pie-slicing method as well.

A suggestion I have is to have a high/low, where the low officer does quick-peaks around the corner and signals to the high officer if it is clear or not or th eother way around. If a threat is being detected you can still charge around the corner and take it out but now knowing where the bad guy is. You lose a bit of your surprise but I don't think you lose that much compared to slowly slicing the pie. The bad guy still doesn't know when you are coming and/or high or low. If you are quick you might have a good chance of not being seen by the bad guy to.

The quick-peak also to me seems much faster because you can scan of large areas quick and easy.

As I said, I am new to CQB and my intention is not to come here and tell you that you all are doing something wrong. I am just curious and are interested to know and it seems that it's OK to ask a lot of questions in this place. It seems that slicing the pie is some kind of standard in CQB so I guess there must be a good reason for it and I guess I am going to here why now =)

Regards

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Post by Admin » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:30 pm

Hello kUsling

First of all welcome to CQB-Team.

I’m not sure that I understand your post but here goes.

If you use the quick-peak you only stick your head around the corner for a second. And if there is a threat just waiting for you. You can’t return fire immediately. Then you retract your head and have to “clear” the corner again knowing that there is a threat.

You can use a dynamic High Lowe: http://www.cqb-team.com/High-Lowe.html
This is a good way for 2 men to clear a corner ready to fire at a target.

The Pie technique is an old one but still used. But is best if you are going very slowly, and you have a good feeling that you are not compromised.

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Post by Admin » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:35 pm


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Post by Jack » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:29 am

Quick Peak has it's advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that you clear a large area quickly. The disadvantage is that the bad guy is as likely to see you as you are to see him.

If you slice the pie correctly, you will see the bad guy before he sees you. This is why slicing is so popular and usually SOP.

Save quick peaks for things that can't be cleared by slicing. For instance, quick peaks are really good for attics.

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Post by kUsling » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:25 pm

Thanks for the welcome! Glad to be here and I find this site and forum very informative!

I understanding your thinking and you have good points all of you!
But I think that what I wrote didn't come across right. I am not saying that you are wrong, I just want to see what you think about using the quick-peak as described here.

What I mean is pretty similar to the video you linked to Admin:
http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=qRu5LmHx0jM&NR=1
At 01.06. The only difference is that you return after the peak, evaulate and then either take position so you see the area you've cleared or you lean in a take out bad guy and then take position.

In words, something like this:

Start of far away from the corner, using the principles that Jake already have written about what weapon you have and what weapon the bad guy has and which position that is to your advantage in that situation.

You from that position, probably a few/couple of meters from the corner, do a quick peak by quickly leaning your upper body to see if there is a bad guy present. Then you return your body and evalute. If a bad guy was present with a weapon you still has the upper hand because you can quickpeak again and take him out. This is done real quick. Because he has to react to you peaking around the corner he has to react to you. Action is faster than reaction.

If there is no bad guy you move your body so you can see the area around the corner you just cleared.. and then you continue.

When you have cleared by quick-peaking enough for being sure that there is no threat in the immiedate area around the corner you go and place yourself next to the corner near the end of the wall and do a quick-peak again as explained above. This time you will see the entire rest of the area around the corner in one peak. If there is a bad guy present you do again as above, return and evaulate, lean in and shoot.
By using 3 quick-peaks in a rapid manner you have cleared the corner and have had action vs reaction (at least 0.2 seconds) on your side.


Pros and cons with this one as far as I can see:
Cons with this one:
- Bad guy might see you and shoot through the wall.
- Bad guy can change his position between quick-peak and shot fired.
- Might be hard to see if bad guy has a weapon or not.
- Bad guy knows you are coming.

Pros with this one:
- Bad guy might not see you (If you are lucky). It takes time to concentrate on one spot for a longer time.
- Because you see him first and then disappears he has to find you, you know were he is.
- When you have spotted a bad guy you know where he and if he is armed and can quickly do a quick-lean around the corner and fire at him.

Jake wrote:Quick Peak has it's advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that you clear a large area quickly. The disadvantage is that the bad guy is as likely to see you as you are to see him.

If you slice the pie correctly, you will see the bad guy before he sees you. This is why slicing is so popular and usually SOP.

Save quick peaks for things that can't be cleared by slicing. For instance, quick peaks are really good for attics.
I do not understand why you will see bad guy first if you slice the pie correctly but not using quick-peak. However, that might be because I have misunderstood slicing the pie =) ...

I have seen different variants of slicing the pie. The one in the video Admin linked (copied above in this post) is what I think the best one I have seen yet.
Other ones I have seen in videos on youtube is moving your whole body slowly around the corner, not leaning and not sudden. This last one I think is at best has a 50/50 success-rate and it is foremost this last one I really can't see the advantage with compared to the others.

Besides that, I agree with you Jake!

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Post by Jack » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:49 pm

Slicing the pie shouldn't be 50/50. If it is then you are doing something very wrong. 50/50 is always bad no matter what the tactic. You always want to throw the odds in your favor.

The reason that slicing the pie works so well is that you are moving slowly. And you are leading with your eyes and your muzzle. Not telegraphing with your foot or your elbow.

Moving slowly helps because you move slow enough to process what you are seeing. The goal is to see the bad guys elbow, foot, or back, before he sees anything of you. You are looking for a very small portion of your bad guy.

Put a friend of your in a room. Let him stand anywhere in the room. Then you slice the pie and see if you can see a small portion of him before he sees you. If you are slicing the pie properly, this should be a consistent, easy task.

On the other hand a quick peak is designed to expose you to the threat, not for a long enough period of time that allows him to react. However you did expose yourself to him and he can take action against you.

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Post by kUsling » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:06 pm

Jake wrote:Slicing the pie shouldn't be 50/50. If it is then you are doing something very wrong. 50/50 is always bad no matter what the tactic. You always want to throw the odds in your favor.

The reason that slicing the pie works so well is that you are moving slowly. And you are leading with your eyes and your muzzle. Not telegraphing with your foot or your elbow.

Moving slowly helps because you move slow enough to process what you are seeing. The goal is to see the bad guys elbow, foot, or back, before he sees anything of you. You are looking for a very small portion of your bad guy.

Put a friend of your in a room. Let him stand anywhere in the room. Then you slice the pie and see if you can see a small portion of him before he sees you. If you are slicing the pie properly, this should be a consistent, easy task.

On the other hand a quick peak is designed to expose you to the threat, not for a long enough period of time that allows him to react. However you did expose yourself to him and he can take action against you.
You hav many good points. I think I had not really grasped and still not has clearly grasped how a good slicing the pie looks like.


With what you have said as background (moving slowly, trying to see parts of the bad guy etc) what do you think about this one:
http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=qRu5LmHx0jM&NR=1
At 01.06.
(Copied from Admins and mine posts above)

I might repeat myself when I post and might have missed stuff you have written. That's because I worked on New years eve yesterday and it was one of the worst nights I've ever worked... I am pretty tired right now...

Now it's time to go to work again...

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Post by Jack » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:19 pm

Yea that video displays a large part of the concept. However they are not practicing what they preach, because almost all of them are leading with their elbows. You need to tuck the elbows in and lead with eyes muzzle and gun. Also they are moving too quickly to register what they are seeing. In other words, they might see a shoulder, but by the time the register that they are seeing a shoulder, they have already rolled out further and now they see the whole bad guy and he sees them. Go slowly.

A good solo way to practice is to hang a T-Shirt in a room. Slice the pie until you see the shoulder of the shirt. At that point if somebody was wearing the shirt, they wouldn't be able to see you, because you are leading with your eyes and gun(not telegraphing by letting your elbow lead or your foot) and you have not yet seen his face. If you are not telegraphing, which is to say that you are leading eye's and muzzle, and you only see a portion of the bad guy and not his face, then he obviously can't see you.

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Post by kUsling » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:13 pm

Jake wrote:Yea that video displays a large part of the concept. However they are not practicing what they preach, because almost all of them are leading with their elbows. You need to tuck the elbows in and lead with eyes muzzle and gun. Also they are moving too quickly to register what they are seeing. In other words, they might see a shoulder, but by the time the register that they are seeing a shoulder, they have already rolled out further and now they see the whole bad guy and he sees them. Go slowly.
Good information, it's easier when you have something to compare to...
I saw that elbow to and found it a bit funny...
Jake wrote: A good solo way to practice is to hang a T-Shirt in a room. Slice the pie until you see the shoulder of the shirt. At that point if somebody was wearing the shirt, they wouldn't be able to see you, because you are leading with your eyes and gun(not telegraphing by letting your elbow lead or your foot) and you have not yet seen his face. If you are not telegraphing, which is to say that you are leading eye's and muzzle, and you only see a portion of the bad guy and not his face, then he obviously can't see you.
Of course! Thanks for the tip, I'll try that excercise!

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Post by Jack » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:03 am

Has anyone been practicing this stuff?

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Post by jimothy_183 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:56 pm

Jake wrote:Has anyone been practicing this stuff?
When I tried out some of the stuff you suggested (in the game) I was able to see the bad guy's shadow or the tip of his gun before seeing the bad guy. I must say that this works much better than what I used to do which is just move around a corner or a door in one smooth motion. This stuff works even in games.
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