Stacking

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Alan
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Stacking

Post by Alan » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:19 am

Prior to entering a room, how does your team stack on an a door? (for open doors and closed doors).

I am wondering about the safety aspect of linear stacks versus double stacks. I always felt double stacking where possible (e.g. closed doors) was a safer solution because linear stacks seem restricted when trying to cover the other side of the door and yet time and time again I see teams using linear stacks - not double stacks.

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Jack
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Post by Jack » Fri May 02, 2008 3:31 am

I think this would depend on what clearing method you are using to some degree, excluding the initial point of entry.

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Post by jimothy_183 » Fri May 02, 2008 4:52 am

Jake wrote:I think this would depend on what clearing method you are using to some degree, excluding the initial point of entry.
Could you give me some examples because I'm not quite sure what you mean. :?:

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Post by Admin » Fri May 02, 2008 10:07 am

I think that the line up on one side is a good way to go, because you come in a line, stop stack-up and continue in the line, but both are possible. If the door is open and you want to pie/scan the centre of the room, you can split your team up. And if the door is closed, you need a brecher to step up and open the door while an operator secures ahead of the train down the corridor. The team SOP and entry technique decides. One thing to remember is if you split your team in a hallway and you experience heavy gunfire from the room, the team might have to make a tactical fallback, the operators on the other side of the doorway are trapped.

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Post by Jack » Sat May 03, 2008 12:40 am

Take the wall flood method. You get into the room and go to your points of domination, you determine that no one is in the room, but the guy on the left calls door right. You are all already lined up on one side of the door, so that's how you do it. Now look at the walking the walls entry technique. Lets say the guy on the right is walking the wall, he gets to a door and stops. The second guy is also walking the walls from the other side of the room. When he gets to the door and stops, he will be on the other side of the door. Unless the first guy has a third guy come up behind him first. It all depends. It also depends on what you are trying to accomplish, as mentioned by admin about breaching the front door.

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Post by Jack » Sat May 03, 2008 12:41 am

Sorry. The guy on the left would call door LEFT.

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Post by jcheng14 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:08 am

You almost never want to double stack on an open door. This is because part of your element will have to cross the uncleared door to the opposite side. However if you approach from opposite sides, then a linear stack would require the crossing. One wants to minimize crossing an uncleared open doorway as much as possible, so take that into consideration.

For closed doors, double stacks can provide an advantage if the doorway is large enough to permit multiple people entering the room simultaneously. However if the door is not large enough, it can still give a slight speed advantage if the team has very good timing. Otherwise, the less complex linear stacks are faster and safer. Additionally even if the door is closed, your element must take care in crossing the door should it open. This is one of the major reasons why most teams use linear stacks. Simple reduces the chances of mistakes or bad luck to significantly harm your team.

Another advantage of linear stacks is that it allows coverage of the far corner. Double stacks will get caught in a crossfire. If double stacking is to be used, it should be used only by highly trained teams with good timing and when the element is certain it has not been compromised.

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Post by jimothy_183 » Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:19 am

I think you can still double stack on an open door so long as there is no other areas on the room that the team is currently in that needs covering. This can be done by having the person crossing to pie the door and stop on the other side, this is good for scanning most of the room for threats before entering. But obviously this would only work (as jcheng has already pointed out) when in stealth mode and the team is not compromised.

And as Admin has pointed out the weakness of double stacks is that if the team needs to fall back then the operator on the other side will be trapped.

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Post by jimothy_183 » Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:26 am

How do you guys feel about moving the entire team to the other side of the door for a linear stack?

I mean if it so happens that the team stacks on the hinged side of a door in a hallway I think it would be better if they just stay stacked on the hinged side and enter from there.

However I don't know about stacking on the hinged side of a pull door, this is one of those things that I've been trying to think up a solution for.
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Re: Stacking

Post by KJ » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:23 pm

Alan wrote:Prior to entering a room, how does your team stack on an a door? (for open doors and closed doors).

I am wondering about the safety aspect of linear stacks versus double stacks. I always felt double stacking where possible (e.g. closed doors) was a safer solution because linear stacks seem restricted when trying to cover the other side of the door and yet time and time again I see teams using linear stacks - not double stacks.

Image

now on a linear stack when you enter the room from the left like it shows in the pic would you go left around the the door or cross the door and to the right or break of going left and right going into the house
Image

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Re: Stacking

Post by Ryan » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:02 am

Double stack requires more SOP's and micromanagement to work when moving in. One team move first or one operator after the other? Can create confusion, bump into each other especially if you're crossing over. Whatever you do, nuts to butts, as close to each other and at relatively same pace to allow for a fluid room entry without misplaced men, irregular or awkward spacing and lull times when entering.

A good read here:
"How a stack works:
Stacks usually align to a wall and then proceed to a door for a breach and assault. In this circumstance Each man in the stack pies off of the shoulder of the guy in front of him. #1 watches 12, #2 watches 11, #3 watches 10 etc - the rear guy always watches the 6. In a stack moving in the open the lead watches 12, #2 watches left front quadrant, #3 watches right front quadrant, next men watch left rear, next right rear and trail watches 6. The more men, the more divided the sectors - just visually look at the guy in front of you and pie off of him. A stack is very exposed in the open and it is rarely used in such a fashion. All around security is essential and should be done automatically without any commands necessary. DO NOT POINT YOUR RIFLE AT SOMEONE"S BACK - you should always be pied off of it.

To attack a building:
The basic principle of clearing a building that has suspected enemy is to heavily suppress it with grenades, AT weapons and machine guns. Often one or more squads will overwatch a building and suppress it while an assault squad breaches the first room or two. Violent and continuous suppression is a key concept in force preservation (not getting your people killed.

You have a door leading to a building. Squad leader will call for a single or double stack. Single stack means one file, in a double stack alpha team will be one side of the door and bravo will be on the other. The all around security concept applies to these team sized stacks, the rear man should be watching the rear, NOT the back of the guy in front of him. If there are windows, a room is often fragged before entry. In a double stack breach, the men entering the door alternate between the stacks. Fireteams can also do double stacks, the individual elements in this case are buddy teams. Each room assault should be violent and quick, but following each assault the room should be consolidated and a new plan made - clearing the entire building should be a slow process.

Entering a room:
1st man goes along the right wall. 2nd man goes along the left. third man enters the center of the room. Fourth man goes right, next goes left, both watch toward the center. Each man calls features of the room which are obstacles or threats, the most common of which are additional doors. Call the position of the door. "Door right." Each man stops at the door and provides security on it. The rest of the stack does not pass a door. Contacts are called as "contact direction" as in "Contact right" - do not use a compass bearing or clock bearing in a room. The last man in watches the entry door. When the portions of a room are clear of enemy, a "direction clear" is given. "Right clear" "left clear" - the stack lead then calls "all clear." After all clear, the stack lead calls for status (response: "# enemy KIA, # friendly KIA"), follows the same procedure as in "to attack a building" - assigning stacks to certain doors, continuing to breach or calling for more support from the platoon. A tactical reload (Reloading even if you aren't out of ammo) is always performed before entering a new room.

Preventing Fratricide and Proper Commo:
When entering a room: "[name] coming in" - don't come in without being acknowledged
WHen you need someone to support you: "need [number]"
When throwing a grenade: "frag out"
When leaving a building overwatched by friendlies: "[name] coming out" - don't come out without being acknowledged
When in position: "[direction/name] set" as in "left set" (stack leader) or name set"
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Re: Stacking

Post by jimothy_183 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:05 am

Ryan wrote:Double stack requires more SOP's and micromanagement to work when moving in. One team move first or one operator after the other? Can create confusion, bump into each other especially if you're crossing over.
Negative, good SOPs and training will not result in that but rather a smooth transition.
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Ryan
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Re: Stacking

Post by Ryan » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:10 am

The SOP's in themselves micromanage a lot more. That was the point, two teams stacked and moving together requires more micromanagement, two teams stacked and moving after one another requires less. In a single it's one team moving together requiring very little, hence better.
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"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Stacking

Post by jimothy_183 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:14 am

You are right about that, I thought you meant that the team leader is dictating positions. My apologies.
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Re: Stacking

Post by Ryan » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:48 am


5:00+. Leaning to go - "the domino". Tap to go. Pinch to go. Bump to go.
I personally hate these types of "go sequences".


"No-go's". Being on-line and off-set and giving room/space.
Later videos also include rifle angling on corners, shoulders, etc, to overwatch/cover whilst in the stack.

POINT OF NOTE: STACKS ARE ONE OF THE FEW TIMES YOUR SPACING IS CLOSE CLOSE CLOSE.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

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"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Stacking

Post by Ryan » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:02 am





You have to laugh at the bobbing...

"That's how they trained it. It makes perfect sense, it's a way to count off without making a sound or removing your hand from your gun. It may look stupid, but being dead in the fatal funnel is also stupid."

"I's a physical count. 1-2-3. You don't have to talk or make noise, and you don't have to see the TL's hand. If everyone does it right everybody in the stack can feel it - and they move on the third bob."

"When you are in the stack, you can feel the other operators bobbing. That's the whole point, you don't have to look. You may not see a weapon shaking. Even if you are signaling with your weak hand, I'd rather have both hands on my weapon ready to take down a target if I need to."

Other go-signals include shaking the barrel of your weapon, hand-signal (countdown method non-verbal too).
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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jimothy_183
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Re: Stacking

Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:01 am

This is just another way to do something that already has tried and true solutions. Common ones are the shoulder tap/squeeze and even a simple nod of the head.
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Re: Stacking

Post by Ryan » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:51 pm

Is it true than the Marines stopped stacking in Fallujah due to so many fireteams (literally fireteams) getting taken out on the stack? And they just went with a dynamic flow? I overheard it somewhere. And in the stack they were considering it apparently too dangerous for grenade radius, RPG radius and IED radius. Especially when insurgents were popping internal IEDs by doorways and waiting for the team to stack and move.

Also, what should the spacing be in a stack - tight as possible or a certain spacing? And, what should the distance/time limit be between each operator entering? I've heard of some units having 3/4 pause before entry or even hold out until getting the all clear. I suppose that's good if the buttonhook got your man killed and you didn't rush into the grave either but paused then began to pie it out. Infact if you differentiate 1/2 from 3/4 in terms of drills and procedures then you could really prepare for the worst and hopefully have people to live through it.

Also some notes:
- In the street, the stack should be slightly staggered unlike a single line/column.
- If your stack isn't limiting the gap of dispersion, "lag time", then it's not done properly.

http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,79595,00.html

Example.

"Only the army stacks up before going in a room. Everyone else in the military only stacks if they will throw a grenade into the room. Other wise you do not stack."
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Stacking

Post by tacticalguy » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:22 pm

Can't speak to what the Marines were doing in Fallujah. Based on those issues though, I can see not using a preparatory stack, first. Stacking dispersal should suit the needs of the situation, not trying to make the opposite work. Timing and spacing for entry is the same thing but, this is also where our other discussions about shooters being able to think independently come in, too. Shooters need to be able to react within certain protocols and without direct orders, sometimes. Realizing your buddy ahead of you has just bought the farm and reacting appropriately as well as passing that info back, is one of them.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
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