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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:08 am
by jimothy_183
I'd say that too, techniques that don't fair well in furnished rooms won't fair will in the real world I think.

But then again Wallflood has a similar problem as furniture along the wall can prove problematic.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:14 am
by Jack
Furniture is always a problem. That is why no matter what technique you employ, you can not guarantee how the entry will lock once it is complete.

Entry methods were developed for different groups of people, with different goals and different levels of experience. All of the techniques, to various degrees have been used in real situations. So the question is what technique is right for you and why?

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:16 am
by jimothy_183
Me and my team almost always use wallflood mostly because its nice, simple , clean and mostly importantly, it works.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:22 am
by Jack
The trick is skill development and flexibility. Also it is important to understand the objective and not just what you job is. Often the situation makes your job no longer necessary, but the goal still needs to be accomplished. This is where flexibility and creativity comes in. CQB is not always a game of checkers where you always know which way to jump, sometimes you have to think a little bit.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:26 am
by jimothy_183
I understand that, the thing is my team and I have only recently formed up at the beginning of this year and we are still trying to get our own new SOP sorted out. We all came from other teams where the teams already had their own SOPs well established but now we have to start from scratch. It is because of that we don't have as much time to focus on practicing those kinds of things yet.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:29 am
by Jack
Let me ask you this. If you conduct the wall flood, and the point man goes right. Lets say he takes five steps, then comes to a closed door. Dose he pass it and continue to the corner or stop there?

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:33 am
by jimothy_183
I think that the point should call out the door to the leader, stop and establish a POD there.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:38 am
by Jack
Good. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. What if the room wraps around into another room, like this;

---------] [--------------: :
: :

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:39 am
by Jack
That didn't load up very well. It is suppose to be like this. You enter and go to the right, after a few steps you notice that you are fast approaching a corner. You can see that the wall is several feet from the conner and that it is actually a recessed room inside of the room that you just entered.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:41 am
by jimothy_183
I think I know what your talking about. Ill try and draw up a room of what your talking about.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:50 am
by jimothy_183
Is this what your talking about?


Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:01 am
by Jack
Yea like that, but imagine a door that you enter a few feet in front of your nearest guy. So that after you make entry, the guy who goes right has to deal with the corner from the inside of the room.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:06 am
by jimothy_183
Well I think that if the corners about say 2 or more metres away from the first man then he should stop before the corner and establish a POD.

If the corner is too close then the first man might have to wrap around that corner to clear the other part of the room. Obviously the problem here is that the first man will have to be clearing that part of the room by himself and we all know what those risks are. But perhaps if the man behind the first man could assist him it might help.

Here's an image of what I'm saying:


As you can see in the top picture it is quite easy but the bottom two shows how problematic these types of rooms can be. You can see that by looking at the amount of space there is next to the doorway.

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:57 am
by Jack
On the above scenario, slicing the pie and not going into the sub room, may be the best option. Do you really have to enter it to take control of it? Either way is OK. Just don't go running in by yourself. I would prefer to slow things down, pie it and request assistance before entering.

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:40 am
by jimothy_183
I suppose pieing would be an option but what was going on in my mind was that in the middle picture the point man cant just stop at that little space between the doorway and the corner so he moves about a metre more to allow the man behind him, or 3 man, to enter the room and establish a POD behind him. And in the bottom picture there is no space for either of them to stay in so they both wrap around the corner immediately and establish PODs there.

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:46 am
by Jack
Well there you go. Another example of how it is difficult to communicate over the net. As you understood the situation, your solution was valid in my opinion.

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:49 am
by jimothy_183
By the way It couldn't hurt to ask Mr. Howe to join us here.

I mean my justification would be that free advice is one thing but hands on training is another. :wink:

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:00 am
by jimothy_183
As a CQB enthusiast I only need to read a little bit about the man to respect him.

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:03 am
by jimothy_183
I understand that.

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:01 am
by jimothy_183
Ok, so now I've got a problem to be solved.

What is the best solution when there is a small recessed space above and "behind" the point of entry where a threat can stay and hide in and shoot at whoever comes in through the door. I think this can be really hard as you don't know the layout of the room and what not.