Horizontal Elbow Shield

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Ryan
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Horizontal Elbow Shield

Post by Ryan » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:59 pm



"Why does first man touch his shoulder while moving in? I've never seen that before, was that taught or just something he's doing? Nice job by the way guys."

"The technique is called a horizontal elbow shield. Not knowing what is behind the door, the shield helps protect against a gun grab at close range when first entering the room. If necessary, shots can be fired from the #2 position (thumb pectoral index) as taught by Craig Douglas (AKA "Southnarc") of Shivworks. Thanks for the question and comment."

Sounds like crap to me! :lol:

Have these guys tested it Force-on-Force?

Putting your hand out, above your face, can rebound some attacks, but attackers switch direction on the fly. You can't access the face? Oh, go for the pelvis or abdomen, tackle them, keep striking. They'll get pushed back or put off-guard.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Eiffel
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Re: Horizontal Elbow Shield

Post by Eiffel » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:52 pm

I suppose that we shouldn't try to defend ourselves at all if our attackers can "switch direction on the fly." All those boxers/MMA guys/kickboxing guys with their hands up to protect themselves must not be doing it right. We should just make entry with our guns extended at the low ready and leave ourselves wide open to any dude standing by the door. /sarcasm

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tacticalguy
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Re: Horizontal Elbow Shield

Post by tacticalguy » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:15 pm

Okay, not to jump into a fight here but, I agree with Ryan on this one. Stop the video at :08. Do you see the way the first man in has his weapon deployed? The elbow up almost blocks his face. I would vote instead for better control of the weapon through a two handed grip with the weapon closer to the body if I had concerns about someone being there when I buttonhook. This didn't look smooth to me.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)

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Ryan
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Re: Horizontal Elbow Shield

Post by Ryan » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:46 pm

Eiffel wrote:I suppose that we shouldn't try to defend ourselves at all if our attackers can "switch direction on the fly." All those boxers/MMA guys/kickboxing guys with their hands up to protect themselves must not be doing it right. We should just make entry with our guns extended at the low ready and leave ourselves wide open to any dude standing by the door. /sarcasm
You should try defend yourself proactively.
Is putting your hand up against a projectile weapon "defending" yourself? Technically it's an attempt at it. It's a defensive reaction, often instinctual.
What is "really" defending yourself? Cover. Body armour. A projectile weapon of your own to fight back. Working angles.
Is putting your hand up to a knife "defending" yourself? Technically yes, it's an attempt. You will get cut to pieces.
What is "really" defending yourself? Creating space. Having a weapon in retention ready to engage. Wearing body armour.
Have a read here: http://www.breachbangclear.com/israeli- ... -we-learn/.
This is from Trevor who is also a member of these forums. We can do a lot more proactive measures to defend ourselves than putting up a hand.

Have you ever grappled? When you cannot get a full mount, you get them in a side mount. When you cannot get a leg takedown, you go full body. Almost instantly.
Have you ever boxed? When you cannot make a connection to the head, you go towards the body, or you feint, or you keep striking until you connect.
Cannot strike with a straight or jab? Bring the hook and uppercut, knee to the gut, bite their arm, tackle them, punch their abdomen. Hence switching direction, targeting the vulnerable areas in real-time.
Have you ever seen a knife attack or street fight video? People adjust, and they adjust quickly in real-time. I have seen plenty where the attacker will just floor the person - either punching, kicking, kneeing, biting or tackling. Putting your hand up does not make you safer, in my opinion. Especially the way it is seen here.

Safer to me is engaging the threat before or as he strikes, a threat with a bleeding hole is not a threat for long - pain compliance goes a long way also. Safer to me is not buttonhooking into a threat blindly with my weapon down. Safer to me is, if in a prolonged hand-to-hand fight at the door, attempting to get space for my partner to engage or join. Protecting oneself with your hands can be used in select circumstances, blocking, as can reacting to a threat and pushing into their face and eyes, rebounding. But not here, not in this situation. I do not see this as able to engage the threat initially, even though the person who replied to me said that you could. In this video, I do not see that. I see a weapon down, not ready, and have to come around his body, then point upwards before engaging. A few seconds reaction against an attackers action. I think that would end up in a grappling session at the door, a winded or knocked out entry team member. Heck, maybe 1/5 chances he might actually win against the attacker and get his weapon into position. But in this video, it is done poorly. So is execution a problem or the concept itself? I still argue the concept itself.

When you are punched in a glove or hand, even if it is protecting you, you can get knocked back. You can get stunned for a moment. Doing this while moving, towards threat, is walking into a fist. The weapon was in his left hand facing down. It was not even in the close combat position or retention position ready to engage into an attackers body. It was not even capable of getting there for a few seconds, in my opinion. If an attacker is going to punch you, they are not going to stop. If they see a weapon, they might try control that too. In this position, it is easy to control and pressure on top of the barrel will keep the weapon pointed down, pressure to the sides will push the barrel off-line. His wrist is in a poor position. He's pretty much fucked.

Questions you should ask:
How does this protect me exactly?
How effective is it at protecting me?
Will it work as intended (i.e. preventing gun grab, because I don't think it will)?
Is this behaviourally compliant against threat?
Are there better ways to protect myself instead of putting my arm or hand up towards threat?
Am I making any major mistakes during this entry which would have avoided those risks or mistakes in the first place?

As TG said, weapon control and retention may make you safer. Gun greater than fist. I also think it takes longer for him to hit his corners and rebound into the rest of the room. I also think you could clear from the door and annihilate any threat awaiting door ambush in the first place. I wouldn't call putting a hand up against an attacker door ambushing you to be "defending" oneself effectively. I see this as counter-productive, tactical mythology. I would really like to test it Force-on-Force.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

Eiffel
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:53 am

Re: Horizontal Elbow Shield

Post by Eiffel » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:41 am

If you don't put your hand/elbow up what are you doing? In my (admittedly limited) experience, if you have the gun in a two handed, high ready style position, the handgun gets jammed back into your chest and malfs after one round. If it's in a low ready it gets pushed down and now you're in a wrestling match standing in the door. If you use two hands the other guy is free to use two hands too. One handed, you can get the gun slightly off to the side and back, and engage with multiple rounds, plus with your elbow up you greatly reduce the risk of getting knocked the fuck out with one blow. The horizontal elbow shield also puts your arm in a place where you can strike, push the guy back, or jam his hand if he tries to draw a gun.

I highly disagree with your statements about getting knocked back by punches. You are going to get rocked, no doubt. If you make entry with your hands away from the head, you are going to get rocked even worse. Walking into a solid cross could very well take you out of the fight completely. You complain that this doesn't really address someone switching targets on you, but that's not really relevant. Do MMA guys and kickboxers have a bad defense when their hands are high? No, of course not, it's actually the best defense, all things considered, because they can tolerate pain but nobody is immune to getting knocked out. Your goal is to stay up and use your handgun. You can't do either if you're unconscious from eating a dude's cross, while you can work through the pain of a body blow or a knee. It's a compromise between protecting your head and protecting your gun, and if you fail either one you're dead.

Southnarc (Craig Douglas) teaches the retention position and horizontal elbow shield pretty much as demonstrated and it is very effective provided you know what you are doing. You say his gun is pointed down but that is not what I am seeing here. As taught by Southnarc, the gun is pointing at abdomen/pelvis level for someone in clinch range (this is dependent on the height of the individuals). So it looks low but if someone is a legit H2H threat it's pointed at them. Southnarc is also one of the very few instructors out there doing force on force training for undercover LE and civilians. As a matter of fact his classes are quite well known for pressure testing H2H techniques. This is not a technique for a SWAT team, fully jocked up in helmets and armor and long guns. This is a handgun technique only, one for UC law enforcement and patrol officers. Also the entry technique demonstrated is sort of irrelevant. It's not what Southnarc teaches AFAIK, looks like SIG academy is responsible there. His AMIS class mostly involves clearing from outside rooms and also heavily utilizes force on force.

Edit: this is an old video demoing Southnarc's retention position.

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