Muzzle up ore down?

Forum to discuss CQB entry tactics / room clearing, with other registered users.

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seal236
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by seal236 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:12 pm

Any good operator should be able to flow from up to down and vice versa depending on the situation.

If I am toe to toe with someone such as upon entry my gun needs to be up because now my hands are up. If my muzzle is down my hands are down. Which means YOU loose.
You against a red man suit.... try it yourself!

As far as SOPs of muzzle up or down in CQC: Back in the day the SOP was written that everyones muzzle will be down. This was because the cat walk, and guys feared ADs with a RSO getting injured. This has evolved to up and down with proficient operators and overseas experiences.

Regardless if you create SOPs based on a guys gun 'might' go off and hit someone if you reload this way or face that way or clear this way then your team is behind the power curve. Trust and proficiency and tactical advantage is the only hard fast rule.

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tacticalguy
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by tacticalguy » Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:56 am

seal236 wrote: Regardless if you create SOPs based on a guys gun 'might' go off and hit someone if you reload this way or face that way or clear this way then your team is behind the power curve. Trust and proficiency and tactical advantage is the only hard fast rule.
Abso-freaking-lutely!
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)

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Ryan
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by Ryan » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:53 pm

Paul Howe talks the SUL position....


Talks low ready.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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jimothy_183
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:41 pm

semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

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Ryan
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by Ryan » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:32 am

The consensus is always high-ready when you're up front of stack, pre-entry?





When do you go from up/down to in the ready position to engage?
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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tacticalguy
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by tacticalguy » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:54 am

The lead at the front of the stack is at high ready, covering the door, yes. The rest of the stack is covering surrounding areas if this is an unsupported entry. Image A supported entry where you have other officers or soldiers covering your entry would have the following team members at low ready. That's how I was trained. Image
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)

sgo.ramirez
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Re:

Post by sgo.ramirez » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:21 pm

As always it depends on situation. SEALS can use high ready standard as they are used as they are military special forces. For Law enforcment units when every time decision of taking shot is have to be made it is difrent philosophy. In Polish counterterrorism units (SPAP) training it is said that muzzle up is used only when we want to take a shot. As cheng14 siad, it blocks off some of your sight lines - for example during movement (we don't see ground cause of high positioned arms), during contact with suspect (when we aim the chest, we dont see what target might pick up) and during entry like crisscross (muzzle control).
I also remeber one of considerations of SUL technique instructor - in times when every citizen have camera in their cellphones aiming directly (muzzle up) innocent witness might end with some media problems. But it is decision to take by person which have to decide about own safety or this side issues.

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Ryan
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by Ryan » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:40 am

"When you cross the threshold of the door you keep your rifle angled down, once you are clear of the doorframe you pop it up to the ready. The reason for this is so that the barrel of your weapon doesn't slam into the doorframe. The only way to enter a room with the weapon at the ready is if you come straight in and not from the stacked position next to the door. That would be a death wish." - This true?

Also, I hear low-ready is too slow for immediate threat contact in close quarters and therefore a high-ready is applied for that speed pay-off, true?

"If you practice both options in CQB, you will realize "muzzle up" is better in terms of speed and economy of muscle movements! You simply have to rotate the barrel a few degrees upward and let the stock fall under your pit arms instead of bringing the whole thing downward for nearly 90°. When you shoulder your weapon again, you will also gain a few milliseconds and get better weapon control."

CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

ClearRight
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by ClearRight » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:21 pm

Use both. When I'm covering something or up front/ready to enter as no 1, my eyes are just above my sights, muzzle ready to snap up into a firing position. When I'm moving around or stacked as no 2, my muzzle is generally down (and outside no 1). I find coming up from low ready is faster than moving down from high ready. Upon entry, my muzzle is up at the ready before I've passed through the doorway. I go to high ready if the situation demands it, to move closer to walls or to avoid muzzle sweeping anyone, or as a part of moving to high port.

Any good operator should be able to use the positions that suit the situation at hand.

PS: Ryan, LOL at your bottom signature quote!
More guns and bullets make bad guys go away faster,
which in turn makes everyone in the area safer.
- Paul Howe

jcheng14
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by jcheng14 » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:08 am

As everything the answer is situational. Safety is a primary factor. You don't want to be muzzle up if your family is in the floor above you. You don't want to be muzzle down if you're in the top floor and you have people sleeping in the basement. You don't want to be muzzle down in a boat. You don't want to be muzzle up in a helicopter.

A lot of discussion has been made here about in a stack. Used to be everyone was taught low ready for entries. Reasons include range rules, concern for instructors and RO's on the catwalks above, vision and sightlines etc. However apparently in 2006 during Ramadi and TF626/88 whoever you want to call them in Baghdad learned that muzzle down in a stack is slow. You cannot bring your weapon to a firing position until the person in front of you has cleared the space. When shooting on the move, one leans forward into the rifle and the space in front of the head and chest will clear before space in the waist area. You can then start bringing your muzzle down sooner and keep a tighter stack // faster entry. Similarly, if the person ahead of you is shot, they will fall top down. If you were muzzle down you would have to wait until they fell below your waist to be able to bring your rifle back up to engage. Muzzle up allows you to get on target faster. Standing on a straight range, muzzle down is faster. In a stack, muzzle up will be faster IF you are keeping the stack tight as you should be.

seal236
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by seal236 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:57 pm

Howe, Lamb, and Vickers are dinosaurs that have failed to keep current thinking that 'the way they did it' is going to stay the top of the food chain for the rest of their life. SEALs have been doing High ready since the 90s. Finally around 2010ish SAFARTEC or however you spell it is teaching and doing muzzle up for dynamic clearance. So sorry boys the big green machine has made the switch rather you choose to believe it or not.

seal236
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by seal236 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:05 pm

One more thing to note in response to Howes comment about SEALs and High Ready. John Shaw is a outstanding range shooter, and yes he taught in the begging years of the SEAL Teams Shooting Tactics in the 90s. If you have ever been to MidSouth there is many plaques from ODAs, Police, Foreigners, Marines etc. With that being said Shaw is a range shooter and what he taught then has evolved very much into something different. Shaw stopped teaching prior to 2000. Since then the curriculum has been built in a group effort between SEALs and the current instructors to lend towards combat shooting. Most people train on flat ranges shooting paper, Mid South is a dynamic range that mimics combat, a perfect breading ground for the high ready based on its superior technique for quick engagements on the move, through windows/ doors, out of vehicles. We can take this one step further with Dwaynes CQD, this may have been the beginning of the High Ready in the first place. A martial artists back ground who cracked the code on fighting with a rifle or pistol realizing you can't always shoot. Though I don't believe everything CQD offers but the prisoner handling and the weapon combatives is def some of the best in the business.

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jimothy_183
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by jimothy_183 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:23 am

seal236 wrote:Howe, Lamb, and Vickers are dinosaurs that have failed to keep current thinking that 'the way they did it' is going to stay the top of the food chain for the rest of their life. SEALs have been doing High ready since the 90s. Finally around 2010ish SAFARTEC or however you spell it is teaching and doing muzzle up for dynamic clearance. So sorry boys the big green machine has made the switch rather you choose to believe it or not.
I had a bit of a giggle since this is coming from a guy named "seal" so it may seem a bit biased to me. However, I do agree somewhat about these 3 personalities you mentioned not keeping up with the times somewhat. Just looking at the way they shoot, stance, grip; the fundamentals I can see how they seem to be a bit stuck in their old ways. I don't think they do things "wrong" as I think they are just stuck in using old techniques that are not longer currently being taught.
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

ClearRight
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by ClearRight » Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:20 pm

jimothy_183 wrote:
seal236 wrote:Howe, Lamb, and Vickers are dinosaurs that have failed to keep current thinking that 'the way they did it' is going to stay the top of the food chain for the rest of their life. SEALs have been doing High ready since the 90s. Finally around 2010ish SAFARTEC or however you spell it is teaching and doing muzzle up for dynamic clearance. So sorry boys the big green machine has made the switch rather you choose to believe it or not.
I had a bit of a giggle since this is coming from a guy named "seal" so it may seem a bit biased to me. However, I do agree somewhat about these 3 personalities you mentioned not keeping up with the times somewhat. Just looking at the way they shoot, stance, grip; the fundamentals I can see how they seem to be a bit stuck in their old ways. I don't think they do things "wrong" as I think they are just stuck in using old techniques that are not longer currently being taught.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but do watch a bit of Lamb on Youtube - the shooting vids, at least, as that's sort of my field at work. He's definitely changed his shooting technique somewhat over time.

Personally, I use both as the situation dictates. So does everyone I know who has a bit of common sense. Out MOUT doctrine, however, is strictly muzzle down. From what little I've read up on it, all of the 3 above are proponents of muzzle up if the situation dictates it, but default to muzzle down. Teaching a method you're familiar with and know works makes sense, but I tend to agree it may keep you behind the power curve. Stay dynamic and use some common sense is what I tell my guys.

As with everything in life, take what you can use from all instructors and discard the rest. Those guys are former SMU. They know their stuff and have used it on real-life targets with people shooting back. Some of it should be relevant to you, even if you don't agree with it all. I use Howe's KISS-based CQB tactics (if in doubt, stick to a single wall, stay on line), Lamb's rifle sling and Vickers' motto "speed is fine, accuracy is final".

That said, Seal236, judging by your nickname and arguments, you have some damned good credentials. I hugely respect your knowledge and accomplishments, and value the input you provide here.
More guns and bullets make bad guys go away faster,
which in turn makes everyone in the area safer.
- Paul Howe

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Ryan
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by Ryan » Fri May 22, 2015 7:20 am

CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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DareTactical
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by DareTactical » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:19 am

IDF use muzzle up as SOP from I've seen, especially their SF units. Obviously this doesn't mean it is the 'correct' way, but worth mentioning.

Eliran Feildboy (former Duvdevan and current head of Project Gecko)
"Duvdevan and the rest of the SOF like the work with high ready due to the fact that most houses in the west bank \ Gaza are quite tight,and full of furniture, further more new \ lose [sic] equipment sometimes tend to get caught by your buddy rifle when he brings hes gun up. Still i think low ready is awesome - its natural, flexible and comfortable - but everything has its place and time - and we like in the IDF to have more than one tool."
"train hard, fight easy"

DTas
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by DTas » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:08 pm

DareTactical wrote:IDF use muzzle up as SOP from I've seen, especially their SF units. Obviously this doesn't mean it is the 'correct' way, but worth mentioning.

Eliran Feildboy (former Duvdevan and current head of Project Gecko)
"Duvdevan and the rest of the SOF like the work with high ready due to the fact that most houses in the west bank \ Gaza are quite tight,and full of furniture, further more new \ lose [sic] equipment sometimes tend to get caught by your buddy rifle when he brings hes gun up. Still i think low ready is awesome - its natural, flexible and comfortable - but everything has its place and time - and we like in the IDF to have more than one tool."
The IDF's CQB techniques often include a very close stack.
If a man in the stack doesnt have a threat to cover, he'll hold his weapon at the muzzle up position, as I tell my guys - muzzles up can always come down, muzzles down cant always come up, of course the down side to this is that it is slower.
If there is a threat to cover (doors, furniture, etc), he'll be at the high ready position.

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DareTactical
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by DareTactical » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:49 am

I've personally used muzzle down most of the time, but I have to admit that muzzle up is quicker if one is running short distances (think cover to cover or running into new position to engage). I understand the argument of close stacks and rifles getting caught in your gear or the gear of the guy next to you, especially with non-bullpups, and muzzle up does prevent this. The argument for muzzle down could also be that the stacked team have space to their offside then they will be able to point their rifles down and away from the guy in front of them.

As others have mentioned it is slower to go from muzzle up to pointing at threat, than from muzzle down to point at threat. Reason being, although from muzzle up, you have gravity working for you in the beginning, your rifle is accelerating and you will have to slow down this acceleration as it comes to target, making it less controllable as there is a greater chance of the muzzle overshooting the intended target which means it is less easy to snap to target. With muzzle down, although gravity is working against you in the beginning, gravity also works for you as the rifle comes up to target, and requires less countering force to ensure the rifle muzzle doesn't overshoot the target.

There is also the thing about field of view. If the rifle is muzzle up next to the side of your head, it will not really obstruct your field of view except maybe on the side (negligable), however when talking about high ready vs low ready, high ready will partially obstruct your field of view, low ready will not.

So, in my opinion: If you're maintaining a static position and waiting for targets to pop up, then low ready is the way to go . If you're running to cover or running to engage then high ready should be used.

From the stack? I guess there is no right answer, only preferences.
"train hard, fight easy"

seal236
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by seal236 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:53 pm

DareTactical wrote:I've personally used muzzle down most of the time, but I have to admit that muzzle up is quicker if one is running short distances (think cover to cover or running into new position to engage). I understand the argument of close stacks and rifles getting caught in your gear or the gear of the guy next to you, especially with non-bullpups, and muzzle up does prevent this. The argument for muzzle down could also be that the stacked team have space to their offside then they will be able to point their rifles down and away from the guy in front of them.

As others have mentioned it is slower to go from muzzle up to pointing at threat, than from muzzle down to point at threat. Reason being, although from muzzle up, you have gravity working for you in the beginning, your rifle is accelerating and you will have to slow down this acceleration as it comes to target, making it less controllable as there is a greater chance of the muzzle overshooting the intended target which means it is less easy to snap to target. With muzzle down, although gravity is working against you in the beginning, gravity also works for you as the rifle comes up to target, and requires less countering force to ensure the rifle muzzle doesn't overshoot the target.

There is also the thing about field of view. If the rifle is muzzle up next to the side of your head, it will not really obstruct your field of view except maybe on the side (negligable), however when talking about high ready vs low ready, high ready will partially obstruct your field of view, low ready will not.

So, in my opinion: If you're maintaining a static position and waiting for targets to pop up, then low ready is the way to go . If you're running to cover or running to engage then high ready should be used.

From the stack? I guess there is no right answer, only preferences.
Going from the low vs high in terms of speed is a proficiency thing. I am faster going from low to high when i am point shooting and not using sights. However I am more accurate at speed with the high. Low works off of a shoulder weld fighting gravity which most fight to fast and go up too high and then correct you can measure the distance based off of the shoulder weld.
The high however does not go off of a 'weld' the barrel and the buttstock move at the same time which means the distance is cut in half, add that with proficiency and you have a faster method.
Lets also define both of these positions high or low means that someone can safely walk infront of you with out being flagged. This bs of holding the run out and looking just over the sights is NOT a low ready. It is a modified ready.
If I am at the "ready" my eyes are through the sights. If i am ready to engage a potential threat and my eyes are through the sights i am ready to quickly engage, if my eyes are over my sights i have to acquire them= slower. If someone complains about it obstructing their view then their sights are too far back or they are using a tube sight vs a small dot that is infant of the mag well. Red dot sights are NOT viewing ports they are only there to house a small red dot period.

Try this drill to prove my point= 5-7 targets 1-1.5 meters apart
stand in the middle of all the tgts facing prance turn and Shoot TGT 1 then TGT 2 then 1 then 3 then 1 then 4 then 1 then 5...
If you will find that :
1. You can search for your next target at full extended gun, with your eyes ahead of your sights and txt acquire with your eye through your sight
2. if you bring your gun down to look over it is entirely too slow.

Also do this drill with funny face targets with shoot and no shoots...

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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by Breacher01 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:26 am

My unit is doing 2/3 High risk arrests, mostly starting from a front door, or a front door of a suspect in a apartment building. Because we're made up of about 50/50 Military personnel and personnel with a Police background.

We use high and low ready differently, but instinctual. A Military operator member may be used to have a high ready with long guns in the (open)field and not much experience before with pistols and tasers. Engage front, right, left or back, or cover and secure 360 degrees from a line, longer but comparable to a single stack. Tasers... we don't know... I'm used to shoot in the general direction of enemies 50 to 300 meters away.

Our police personnel generally use High ready when stacked, because you could engage every direction beside the front in high-ready with long guns without having to move your angle of fire even momentarily across your unit. They are not used to platoon strength stacks, we are.

They focus on one door, we focus on a compass direction.

Reading this post it occurred to me it may not even matter, as long as you do as you are trained, and not point a 416 at me i'm ok with it. I do notice, but have no measurement of... that policemen follow our behaviour with longguns, and military personnel follows police style with pistols, tasers and everything we didn't use in Mali, Aghanistan or Irak.

Just dont point at me, I dont care if you pass my feet(no armor) or my head (level IIIA/IV neck and head protection). we discussed this internally, I have a pdf fact sheet about this for interested. Its just one title page and the document, but still. (just not for civilians, unfriendly countries and press) The conclusion was we did not find any problems with it since the units mixed about 9 years ago.

So if you have hours of formal training, please stick to that, and don't try to switch styles, it may be a difficult transition, and we never had any incidents with it over 9 years, thats about a bit over 4000 deployments.

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