Muzzle up ore down?

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Muzzle up ore down?

Post by Admin » Tue May 20, 2008 6:33 pm

During cqb, Muzzle up ore down?
Why and why not?
And does the type of weapon decide?

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Post by Jack » Sat May 24, 2008 12:09 am

Again it depends.

For my handgun, often I prefer to have the weapon pointed straight and hold it high in tight to my chest. If I have to pass by somebody and I don't want to "laser" them, I will quickly go to the position sol and then back to hight and tight.

Long gun is different. I usually use a very low ready. I used to use the contact ready(low but elevated more than I do now). But as I have already explained in another thread, now I keep the gun down and scan around left and right without keeping my gun in line with my eyes. Don't get me wrong, on a stealth search, the gun is held a little higher and usually I use "eyes muzzle gun". But on dynamic searches, or searches in open areas, I don't.

There could be an argument made for a high ready, with a long gun. Obviously this has its benefits when walking through the brush, but some teams use it on entries. In fact a famous navy seal CQB video on You tube shows them going through the door in a high ready. I hear this is doe so that if somebody grabs the weapon, you can easily make a head shot. I even have reason to believe that this tactic is still in use, but I'm not sure.

If the weapon is grabbed when you are in a low ready, it is harder to make a head shot, and you could more easily be shot yourself. However from a low ready, I suspect you could shoot the suspect's legs easily and at a safer angle to other operators in the room.

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Post by jcheng14 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:17 pm

Home defense experts and police training will generally teach low ready. This is because a high ready position blocks off some of your sight lines and you must be able to differentiate between combatants and bystanders.

Some entry teams will go high ready because they are able to assume that subjects inside are hostiles. Other times they may teach high ready because it is quicker to fire from (fractions of a second, but sometimes that counts in rapidly developing situation).

Low ready is safer for all involved unless a subject is just inside a door and able to contest control of the weapon. Retention of a weapon is easier when you use a high ready because the muscles used are generally more developed and the actions are more similar to martial arts or combat sports.

For handguns generally one should use low ready or in a high tight stance as taught by Pincus (Valhalla Inst).


However, most of this is debatable and depends on the situation and personal preference.

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Post by Ming_the_Merciless » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:34 am

From what I remember from Kyle E. Lamb, Vikings Tactics:

Muzzle down is a definite must when inserting in from a rotary aircraft, or any ground vehicle. It allows safe dismounts without muzzle sweeping fellow mates. Moreover keeping muzzle down tends to stay that way in a crash or ramming situation. However if your operating from a boat, raft, or any other maritime craft then muzzle up is logical. Its also easier to move faster with muzzle down, the CG is closer to the body, opposed to being high with regard to stability.

A compliant that Lamb made clear was he saw many medical personnel, as well as operators sling their weapons muzzle up. Thus when patching up a pal and rendering aid, they stick that muzzle up sweeping everyone.
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Post by Jack » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:51 am

Good points.

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Post by Jack » Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:18 am

I think that at least in the past it is fair to say that the Navy Seals love carrying muzzle up. As demonstrated in the video we have already seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e3CWHF9 ... a=N&tab=wv

But I found a new video where they are doing muzzle up on their handguns, which is old school for sure. I was taught that muzzle up was invented to allow the action star and the handgun in the same picture frame on a close up. Of course people see it on TV so they duplicate it. However I'm sure the Seals have different reasons for doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_YZbNjf ... a=N&tab=wv


I believe that most of this is due to the fact that they receive training in CQD.

http://www.cqd.net/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEHo4l0u ... a=N&tab=wv

I think that it is also safe to say that this is not common in other US military units for CQB. For one, my brother in law is Infantry and we have talked about it. Another is the multiple videos that say otherwise.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl= ... itesearch=
http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl= ... itesearch=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYm1zMbq ... a=N&tab=wv

Obviously there is no one answer, although most people that I know carry muzzle down.

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Post by jimothy_183 » Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:19 am

Sorry for going slightly off topic but here are some questions about wallflood:

In this video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_YZbNjf ... a=N&tab=wv

At 3:10 to 3:36 you can see that the operators move in and clear the hard corners before facing the front of the room. Now the problem that my team and I have is that when we are clearing using wallflood we sometimes get shot from the front of the room while we are clearing the hard corners because we are not quick enough in facing the front.

My question is this, is there any way of getting around this or is it something you have to train on (to be faster at clearing the hard corners and facing the front) or is it something you have to live with?


Secondly, in this video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEHo4l0u ... a=N&tab=wv

At 3:13 to 3:20 I can see the first man moving to the middle of the room to clear the front of the room first.

Is this supposed to be a wallflood or is it another entry technique?

And lastly what do you people have to say about this technique shown in 3:13 to 3:20?
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Post by birddog » Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:15 am

I had a chance to review the videos and read your arguments.
Coming from the military side of this topic, I will say that my unit while in country practiced DYNAMIC MUZZLE OREINTATION. Simply stated “Muzzle is always SEARCHING in conjunction with the EYES".
Law Enforcement has their own unique tactics depending on situation, team size and environment and 90% of the time..the doctrine is followed.
As far as a SEAL Teams, Ranger units, SF Teams, Delta, Force Recon, Infantry Soldiers or RSTA Cavalry troopers (like myself) we have the ability to change SOP to meet mission success. We call it Lessons Learned.
They say that hard work never killed anyone, but why take that chance ?

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Post by Jack » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:12 pm

In regards to 3:10 to 3:36. This is my whole point when I posted about "eyes muzzle gun". After he enters the room, why is he continuing to look at a corner that he has already confirmed is clear. How long dose it take to see that nobody is in that corner. A split second.

Here is how I think it should be done. Enter the room, visually clear the corner, which takes a split second, scan the room with the weapon still tucked in tight, which takes just another second, locate the threat, pivot and shove the weapon out, fire.

Keep in mind that the seal in this video is being rebuked for his handling of the entry. I think it is because he is so fixated and continues to stare at a corner that he has already cleared.

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Post by Admin » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:22 pm

jimothy_183 wrote:Now the problem that my team and I have is that when we are clearing using wallflood we sometimes get shot from the front of the room while we are clearing the hard corners because we are not quick enough in facing the front.

My question is this, is there any way of getting around this or is it something you have to train on (to be faster at clearing the hard corners and facing the front) or is it something you have to live with?
I am often asked how to handle immediate threat targets, or a threat that an officer observes that needs to be dealt with immediately up entering the room. In years past, the solution has been to shoot the threat twice and continue to your corner. I now teach officers to commit right or left out of the doorway and put the threat down. I promote servicing the target until it falls, while stepping right or left and creating an air gap that allows three or four to pick up and clear your corner while you are preoccupied.

While no system is perfect, you must choose one system that provides safe and rapid takedown of the threat areas.

This text is writen by Paul R. Howe, he is a 20 year veteran and former Special Operations soldier

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Post by Jack » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:30 pm

I will say that Searching using the Muzzle and the Eyes is SOP for most units, and that searching with a stationary weapon is not something that most people have been exposed to or use. I think that popular thinking would say that you need to search, "eyes muzzle gun," to help get you fire quickly when a target is located. I just don't necessarily believe this is true.

Example, If I was going through a door with my handgun, I would clear the corner quickly, handgun tight and orientated in that direction, then wile continuing to my corner(to allow other team members to enter) I would scan left or right depending on which way I entered. If anyone is located, I would pivot and square up to the threat, which would naturally align my weapon with the suspect, If the decision was to shoot, I would punch out and shoot(or raise the weapon from the low ready. I think that I am more relaxed, quicker, focused and have better balance doing it this way than waving my gun all around.

Now once the room has been initially cleared and I have to clear a certain corner or angel, then I definitely orientate my weapon on the corner while clearing it. I am for orientating your weapon towards the most likely threat, but in a dynamic entry into a room, there is no know threat location until you visually identify one after making entry.

P.S. If you entered a room with four operators you could afford to be focused completely on a small corner of the room, because you have everyone else looking in every other direction. On two man entries you have to work a lot harder because there is so much more room to clear.

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Post by jimothy_183 » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:35 am

What would you say about pointing the muzzle to the front of the room while I visually clear the hard corner? I don't think it's such as good idea because when you need to shoot someone in the hard corner you would be slower as compared to your body facing the hard corner with your weapon in low ready.
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Post by Jack » Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:43 pm

No I don't think it is a good idea either. However once the hard corner is cleared, which should only take a second, then rotating the muzzle to cover other areas of the room dose seem appropriate.

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Post by Merc » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:36 pm

Does anyone know about position Sul? It is very hard to explain the posture, so here are some links-

http://www.themartialist.com/images/LAclass17.JPG

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y95/je ... hicles.jpg

http://www.shootingtips.com/NewFiles/ar ... n-SUL5.jpg

It's my understanding that the main purpose of this position is safety, yet during my training I was shown that from the pistol if a tango surprises you its very easy to punch out with both gun and non-firing hand, using your non-firing hand to push the tango back and let loose some rounds into his abdomen. This happens relatively quickly, under a second. Also there is a Position Sul for sub-gun/assualt rifles/shotguns that is basically keeping your firing hand in the same position as pistol, with the buttstock resting on the pocket of your shoulder. The principle is the same and in my experience this works quite well when moving in stacks. Presentation from Sul with a long gun is as easy as rolling the weapon up into the high ready and can be done quickly as well. I know that Paul Howe teaches this at CSAT and he's no dumbass.
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Post by Jack » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:24 am

Yea I use position Sul, but not when I am near the front of the stack. This technique is usually reserved for people further back, that don't have a chance at getting a shot off. I do use Iposition Sul to slide behind an operator who I am trying to get around or when somebody that is not a bad guy walks in front of my gun. However if I am at the front of the stack then I keep the gun in a low ready, or an underarm assault position, depending on the situation.

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Post by serpiente23 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:43 am

my brother tought me muzzle down, at the range one time he said its easier to "pop up" on your targets. personal preference maybe. i think the muzzle up is an old thing.

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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by Ryan » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:30 am

Admin wrote:During cqb, Muzzle up ore down?
Why and why not?
And does the type of weapon decide?
Whatever one it is, it should not sweep anybody - that is the muzzle sweeping apart of any friendlies body, if it does then it must sweep a non-life threatening part, the limbs ect.

Front man, muzzle up, why? Ready to engage a threat to the front. Depends what terrain etc for the rest of the team, but if they can then yes - why not provide more security?

Terrain, like I said. If the enemy can easily grab it and pull it down or push it away, what is the point?

The type of weapon decides if you do or do not and what part of the formation you are in - longer barrels can be a negative in CQB unless you have a muzzle cap.
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by Dramatikk » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:20 pm

I would say muzzle down for my sake. You will have better field of vision that way, but you better choose what is more comfortable for you. As we said in boxing, when you feel good, you do good. :D
Confidence is the key to performance.

Regarding how easy it is for the threat to push your weapon down when in low ready, I would say it is equally just as easy to push the weapon up when in high ready.
Again this all what feels best for the person holding the weapon, but I believe muzzle down is better because of better field of vision. :)

Kind regards, Dramatikk. :)
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by Ryan » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:30 am

Dramatikk wrote:I would say muzzle down for my sake.

You will have better field of vision that way, but you better choose what is more comfortable for you. As we said in boxing, when you feel good, you do good. :D
That is true, depends on the type of room, furniture - terrain basically. A hallway - narrow and long one, maybe you could go muzzle up. I suppose it's good to be in the high ready, as you're bring up your gun to the target you have already decided whether they are hostile or not - gives you more thinking time to shoot or not to shoot, muzzle up wouldn't be as thought-out in that regard but great for security.

FOV, keeping your head and eyes scanning the room - that is very important.
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Re: Muzzle up ore down?

Post by jimothy_183 » Tue May 29, 2012 7:29 am





@2:04 Explains why SEALs like muzzle up.
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