Building/room clearing in a prison setting

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Building/room clearing in a prison setting

Postby crey » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:33 pm

I work in a prison and I am a member of special operations response team. We train 3 times a month and this a collateral duty. When we train build entries we have always trained in dynamics entries usually with a 6 man team just dumping into room.

Usually our scenario are maybe 1 or 2 hostage taker with a shank ( knife ) and maybe a gun with a hostage or two Would you always make dynamic entry or would you do limited entry when entering any rooms?

what determines what type of entries you should do when entering a room ?

What are your thoughts ?
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Re: Building/room clearing in a prison setting

Postby tacticalguy » Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:19 am

crey wrote:I work in a prison and I am a member of special operations response team. We train 3 times a month and this a collateral duty. When we train build entries we have always trained in dynamics entries usually with a 6 man team just dumping into room.

That seems kind of disorganized. Can I assume that your team is armed?
crey wrote:Usually our scenario are maybe 1 or 2 hostage taker with a shank ( knife ) and maybe a gun with a hostage or two Would you always make dynamic entry or would you do limited entry when entering any rooms?

Depends on the situation. Hostages or not. How crowded is the room, furniture, etc? How large is the room? When you say dynamic entry, are you using a breaching charge, a breaching shotgun, a ram or just kicking the door...? Are you allowed to use flash-bangs or other disruption devices?

crey wrote:what determines what type of entries you should do when entering a room ?

What are your thoughts ?

I don't know your response protocols for a hostage situation so it's a little difficult to answer more specifically than I did, above. Do you do any FoF training?
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
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The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
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Re: Building/room clearing in a prison setting

Postby Breacher01 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:14 am

If they have a hostage, you negotiate right? What are they going to do, they're already in prison...

In my country we have a special unit for that sort of thing, but also assisting in transport of detainees. I've seen them work. It goes a little like the following, I have no hands on experience with this.


The threath:
-Since the subject(s) are in a prison they will be detained at some level within the onion like structure of the inverted fortress. Therefore maybe 75-80% are confined in their cell, but will not comply with the instructions given by the guards.
-The next 20% are single persons confined within their unit(most often 10 1-man cells and a common area without much movable objects.
-In the rest of the cases something happens during transport or are larger riots.
-The most common weapons are bodily fluids, sometimes common objects, rarely crafted into a weapon, but weighed down socks or sharpened anything are know to be used on rare occasion.

Tactics used:
-Open a cell door, and rush as many units in as possible/workable with 2 or 3 riot shields to pin someone to a wall, floor or other solid structure.
-Sometimes pepper spray is used before entering, and this unit wears mostly concussive protection and special protection against bodily fluids(which may just be dirty, or in fact be contaminated with HIV or HEP B etc).
-If there are more subjects involved tear gas can be used, or tasers. The amount of unit entering will be scaled up to match the threat.

We don't have crowded jails here, a wing consists of usually 3 units with 10 cells(1 person), occupancy is around 80-90%. The last large scale riot was in the 20th century. Most prisoners are relatively content, so they want to stay in the cells when these events happen, anything you do in jail which is forbidden outside also counts on the inside, and you become a recidivist with years added to your time if you break the law. Other countries also think our sentencing is light, so you can be out within 12 years(we call that life). More common are jail times of a few months for non violent crimes, and a few years for armed robbery.

The funny thing is trying to escape or escaping is not illegal because we believe its human nature to try. committing a crime during the attempts is however forbidden. So try to keep them happy and you only need about 6-8 trained guards in total during a shift to control conflicts. and that number is based on 1 guard per 80 containees.

Over here we don't try to punish criminals by interrupting their careers anymore because feeding, housing and keeping them healthy is costly. We do it by taking their belongings via taxes. If they can't prove they bought their house, cars, watch or whatever they have they lose it, and pay taxes over them with interest :)
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Re: Building/room clearing in a prison setting

Postby crey » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:28 pm

Yes we are armed we have a primary mp5 and secondary 9 mm weapon. when I say dynamic in mean as we enter a room we just dump into it. We have been training like this for awhile. I have been noticing that a lot teams have been doing limited entry ( slicing the pie) before they enter the room.


I just want to know if you always do a dynamic entry or limited entry when you make entry into a room/building I know the situation will dictate. It just seems like we have alway made a dynamic entries regardless of the situation.


Hostage rescue- hostage getting stabbed by taker do you do a dynamic entry on all the rooms or do you limited entry until you find the taker?

Hostage taker releases hostage and is in the building alone- do you do a dynamic entry on all the room or do you do limited entry until you find taker.
.

These are usually the kind of thing we deal with in a prison. The hostage taker may have a gun or knife and usuall have a 1 or 2 hostages barricade in a room or building. We will negotiate with the taker and try to resolve the issue when all the negotiations fail the we go in.

Thanks for the response
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Re: Building/room clearing in a prison setting

Postby Breacher01 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:27 am

The scenario you post sounds like an execution. You don't need mp5's in a prison, neither do you need 9mm sidearms. I assume your post is fake, because bringing (automatic) firearms into a prison is against regulations almost everywhere. and may ever only done when a whole prison is taken over by the detainees.

Lethal force, which a mp5(mk2) or 9mm sidearm execute on the suspect(s) would be called a death sentence by execution squad. If you are for real you must live in a country where the Geneva convention isn't in use, therefore you are in conflict with UN regulations, and I don't want to help you any further.
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Re: Building/room clearing in a prison setting

Postby crey » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:28 am

Breacher01,

I assure you this post is real. In the prison system I work for when a Hostage(s) are taken negations will be began for a peaceful resolution if negation fail lethal force will be authorized to protect life and gain control of the prison. That is the only time we will be allowed to make entry into a prison with lethal force.

In the 20 years I have worked in a prison system and the last 17 years as a Special Operation Response Team member I have never made entry into a prison with our MP5 & 9mm to rescue a hostage(s), it is not say it won ever happen but I would like to ready when called upon. We don't make entries into a prison everyday with lethal force (thank GOD) but I would like to train as if we would. I know most of y'all do this on a daily basis raids, serve warrant, hostage rescue, etc, etc. that's why I joined this site to ask question and to learn.

So the question I am asking are only to tactically better my team.

Breacher01 private message me and ill tell you who I work for.

Thanks for any help
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Re: Building/room clearing in a prison setting

Postby Breacher01 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:52 pm

I have sent you a Private message.

If you think this forum is full of active High Risk Warranty Ops, of Special Forces Ops you may be wrong, this is about CQB, and related discussion, not a LEO forum or something. That doesn't mean people here don't have much knowledge about CQB. As the name says its more CQB research. And i think there are LEO's around. Just not everyone.

LEO's all over the world have infranet discussion boards, rarely connected to the internet. If you work for Interpol or Europol i might give you some places you can discuss, not accessible over internet.



Regardless, lets have people over here some info on this subject.

You must agree a prison riot can be anything between some in his cell not cooperating, and the entire facility taken over, for starters?
So the still are detained in some manor or the other? Its not that you're looking for a terrorist in a city centre right? ...

Please reply on my PM but also for the rest of us here... Thank you, Stay safe.
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Re: Building/room clearing in a prison setting

Postby PhillipFortner8613 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:19 pm

Regardless of the setting you are performing CQB operations in, limited entry — slicing the pie, for example — is almost always the best alternative to having the whole squad rushing into the room only to be caught off-guard when they enter the room.

Hostage taker releases hostage and is in the building alone- do you do a dynamic entry on all the room or do you do limited entry until you find taker.


Limited entry should, in my opinion, be the entry method the team applies while entering and clearing rooms to find the hostage-taker. While one may argue that a dynamic entry into rooms would quickly locate the hostage taker and therefore promptly neutralize all threats, the hostage taker may be very well prepared and could have premeditated this event, who could then potentially injure you and your teammates when you rush into the room without having a look inside.

For e.g. - the hostage taker may been studying how your special response team functions in the facility for a while and therefore devised a plan to kill at least one officer before being taken down. One day, when he manages to create a prison knife, while your team is clearing every room in search for him, he happens to be hiding near the entrance and manages to brutally wound one of your officers because of the deliberate rushing of your teammates into the room without having a look inside. When you rush into a room, you're increasing the potential of a possible physical altercation, which is never the best route to go to when you can easily negotiate from outside the room, if you spot the hostage taker by slicing the pie from the outside. This therefore results in less likelihood of officer fatalities in CQB scenarios. On top of that, when you rush into a room and meet face-to-face with the hostage taker, you're really forcing him to act immediately which usually results in an attack against you and your teammates. On the other hand, if you slice the pie and see the hostage taker from the outside, you can easily contain and negotiate instead of entering an unpreventable life or death situation.

Some people are really determined to inflict as much harm upon others as possible on their way out and it is in your best interest not to underestimate the hostage-taker. I am unsure of whether this is still the issue but a few years ago, LA police officers wore a black shirt under a white undershirt which visibly created a triangle on their chest. Upper echelon LA gang members then instructed their gang members to attack LA patrolmen in the clearly discernible triangle with stabs and these attempts were successful many times. Maybe this hostage taker learnt a vital spot of your teammates? Why risk the chance, especially when there is no rush (to rescue a hostage, for example)?

Hostage rescue- hostage getting stabbed by taker do you do a dynamic entry on all the rooms or do you limited entry until you find the taker?


This may seem like a tricky question, to be honest, because the life of a hostage is in danger and it is your job to locate the threat and eliminate the threat as soon as possible before he can cause harm to the hostage. While a dynamic entry in all of the rooms can be fast, a limited entry is not relatively slow. In my opinion, you should use limited entry in this too because rushing into the room can startle and cause the hostage taker to act irrationally which may result in him killing the hostage before you get a chance to eliminate the threat. You should not only employ efficient entry techniques into an establishment but also consider the consequences following the application of the entry technique before you enter a room (e.g. not entering the room so that you do not startle the hostage taker which can injure the hostage, though a dynamic entry may be efficient). Instead, you can contain the hostage taker and negotiate from outside the room or from whichever place you believe would be best.
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Re: Building/room clearing in a prison setting

Postby crey » Tue May 02, 2017 12:02 am

Thanks for the response, make a lot of sense.
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Re: Building/room clearing in a prison setting

Postby Breacher01 » Sun May 07, 2017 7:45 pm

Dynamic entry in a jail cell seems unwise because of the non conventional weapons and tactics prisoners may use. In our training we discussed mainly bodily and other fluids, furniture, improvised stabbing weapons and (improvised)blunt object objects, besides the strength of a man cornered.

Our penal colleagues always wear full stab proof riot gear including face and neck protection and 2 men with shields if they need to enter a cell. If my unit is called in this most likely has led to a failure to isolate the event to a single cell or single unit of 10 cells and a hallway. But as I said, prison riots really don't happen over here, because jail times are very short. One individual may snap, but the rest of the unit will wait patiently in their cells, because assaulting an officer results in a much longer stay. Despite that crime rates are quite low here. Most criminals think twice before committing a high penalty themselves, and pay puppets to do the dirty work. If they were smart enough to do the crime they never do the time themselves.

In my line of work we do dynamic entry only with distractions like breaking a window somewhere else, 9-bangers or tear gas. We also make use of stobe lights on weapons and side-arms. Even then we prefer to use multiple points of entry and preferably unconventional options to enter like blowing a hole in a wall or using windows or sky-lights. Anything a person who is accustomed to the building doesn't consider as a possibility.

Of course this must be executed with perfect timing, enough boots on the ground and relatively a lot of intelligence on the threat, the building and its layout and contents.

I like the adrenaline, but I prefer limited entry to build up a presence in a space in a short time before fully clearing a room/residence or building. Its been two years and over 600 deployments since the last time a colleague never returned home, and we like to keep that going. Almost no situation makes me consider opening a door and enter a room with an unknown threat, only crying or screaming has forced me to do so, and I always got a professional reprimand.(but often a private compliment)
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