Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Forum to discuss CQB entry tactics / room clearing, with other registered users.

Moderators: jimothy_183, Admin

Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby tacticalguy » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:50 am

So, your limited/stealth/deliberate entry just went south, BIG time. Do you fight through or draw back? Well, that all depends on your mission goals. Are you gathering intel? Is there a HVT or hostages? Serving a warrant or military objective? I was taught, in the U.S. Army, that if you're dealing with an ambush, it's best to push through and roll the ambush up.
The problem with that concept comes back to your goals and the amount of resistance you're facing in addition to what you're likely to see if you push forward. That outcome can be quite hazy UNLESS, you have a lot more intel. That would then beg the question; if you know that much about the enemy, why are you dealing with an ambush?
So? Thoughts?
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
User avatar
tacticalguy
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby tacticalguy » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:45 am

So, 30 views on this topic and not one comment? If you think that I'm off-base or wrong, call me on it. If you feel that my topic had merit, say so.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
User avatar
tacticalguy
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby Breacher01 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:18 pm

I didn't read it until now.

But regarding you post:

Its quite a dilemma. If you had enough intel about your opposition you wouldn't get into the ambush in the first place. So lets assume you aren't aware of the enemy location but you do have some reliable information regarding enemy strength in a given region.

In the case of any ambush its always important to try and asses enemy positions and unit strenght/numbers. Pushing on seems to be a good bet if you know you can rely on air superiority or back-up. otherwise the rule of thumb is not to scatter, but only advance if you think you overpower entrenched opposition 3 to 1.

So fighting through, flanking or drawing back or any other action you take often can only be chosen when your units actual has enough intel to make a informed decision.

in any case fighting and maneuvering to keep the initiative is key, and holding your ground is only advised when you are combat ineffective. If you just stand your ground anny rational opposing forces will choose to enclose you even more, finishing the ambush with your unit scattered or dead.

Of course any choice depends on a lot of factors.
Breacher01
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:42 pm

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby Ryan » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:18 pm

If there is a prepared enemy who door ambushes the team and you cannot conduct a limited without exposing yourself. Any team should have failed entry procedures OR contested entry procedures. As in, do you grenade it? Do you back off? Do you use an alternate or secondary entry point? Do you send in the robot? Do you peak it and risk? Do you enter anyway? Do you look for another angle on the threat? Do you create holes and engage the threat through them? Do you blow the building sky-high? I put some ideas into my powerpoint I made ages ago. For some threats, they are fixed-in-place. Like a barricaded threat. Others have to be fixed in place to bring accurate firepower against them. This is a huge part of the issue, the lack of visibility into the room. It's not difficult to sit there and engage from the hardcorner. It's hard to enter, visualize and engage the threat whilst being shot at. So as a point of principle, do you gain visualisation first before re-entering or deciding another method/tactic?
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."
User avatar
Ryan
 
Posts: 2779
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:10 am

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby tacticalguy » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:12 am

Breacher01 wrote:I didn't read it until now.

But regarding you post:

Its quite a dilemma. If you had enough intel about your opposition you wouldn't get into the ambush in the first place. So lets assume you aren't aware of the enemy location but you do have some reliable information regarding enemy strength in a given region.

So stipulated.

Breacher01 wrote:In the case of any ambush its always important to try and asses enemy positions and unit strenght/numbers. Pushing on seems to be a good bet if you know you can rely on air superiority or back-up. otherwise the rule of thumb is not to scatter, but only advance if you think you overpower entrenched opposition 3 to 1.

Yup, 3 to 1, minimum, in your favor is what I was taught, also.

Breacher01 wrote:So fighting through, flanking or drawing back or any other action you take often can only be chosen when your units actual has enough intel to make a informed decision.

Reinforced positions. At least one MG nest at the end of an L hallway. Walls are pre-stressed concrete. Red team (hostile) is 5-6. Blue team is 20 effectives. Full combat loadout. Drone on station.

Breacher01 wrote:in any case fighting and maneuvering to keep the initiative is key, and holding your ground is only advised when you are combat ineffective. If you just stand your ground anny rational opposing forces will choose to enclose you even more, finishing the ambush with your unit scattered or dead.
Agreed.

Breacher01 wrote:Of course any choice depends on a lot of factors.
Agreed, again.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
User avatar
tacticalguy
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby tacticalguy » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:28 am

Ryan wrote:If there is a prepared enemy who door ambushes the team and you cannot conduct a limited without exposing yourself. Any team should have failed entry procedures OR contested entry procedures.
That's what I wanted to see.

Ryan wrote: As in, do you grenade it? Do you back off? Do you use an alternate or secondary entry point? Do you send in the robot? Do you peak it and risk? Do you enter anyway? Do you look for another angle on the threat? Do you create holes and engage the threat through them? Do you blow the building sky-high?
Options. Contingency plans.

Ryan wrote: I put some ideas into my powerpoint I made ages ago. For some threats, they are fixed-in-place. Like a barricaded threat. Others have to be fixed in place to bring accurate firepower against them. This is a huge part of the issue, the lack of visibility into the room. It's not difficult to sit there and engage from the hardcorner. It's hard to enter, visualize and engage the threat whilst being shot at. So as a point of principle, do you gain visualisation first before re-entering or deciding another method/tactic?

I want intel. I'm not gonna try to throw teams of people at a problem hoping to overwhelm it. I want to get the most effective reaction for the least cost. If I can use IR, robots, whatever... I'll use what I can. That's the gist of what I was getting at. Going into a situation, there should be a plan to back up the fall-back that you went to when the first two action plans went poof. I'm not saying go into a situation like this expecting the bad guys to have a tactical nuke but, if you're in an area where there is ANY possibility that an un-exploded GBU-12 could be carted in, you need to have a fall-back ready for that.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
User avatar
tacticalguy
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby Breacher01 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:29 pm

I get the idea Ryan has an urban/cqb situation in mind, while I had a much broader spectrum in mind when posting.

The 3 on 1 rule doesn't apply with mayor bottleneck/doorways in mind. Its more a general rule of thumb to guestimate if you or your opposition is able to move against "entrenched" or prepared positions. However in urban terrain i think you can think of your surprised unit as half entrenched because of available cover. if you can fall back one building for instance you might find yourself in a stalemate(excluding the drone). We dont have drones larger then 3 feet.

Reinforced positions. At least one MG nest at the end of an L hallway. Walls are pre-stressed concrete. Red team (hostile) is 5-6. Blue team is 20 effectives. Full combat loadout. Drone on station.


Thick walls and a drone may be a game changer, you could fall back to a stronger defensive position, but you will lose the momentum, but with a hellfire or 2 you may gain the upper hand quickly.

Thats the advantage Large players have, US, PRC, and the RF come to mind. The units I've had the pleasure of working with most ofthen try to steam-roll forward, if at all possible. in the open field, or someones residence.
Tactical aids like plenty more firepower(.50c vs 7, 56) or tactical aids like distraction devices like pyrotechnics, Superior body protection or a well trained unit vs "para-militaries" or militia help a great deal in these scenario's, but you need to know exactly what you're doing and what you're up against. disengaging from a fight is the most sure way to get home in the end. Most objectives can be approached at a later time prepared or in another form. body bags are always your absolute worst outcome.

Doing high risk arrest at suspects homes also changes the rules, because someone might be more like a patient then an adversary, and backing off can cool down the situation maybe, so you can get your mark in front of a judge instead of six feet under.

it all depends on a lot of factors, so at the very least there's lots of room for discussion.
Breacher01
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:42 pm

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby tacticalguy » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:15 am

The discussion is what I'm aiming for. I want people to have to think the concept through. I was taught in the Army that folks that do what we do, need to be able to think outside the box. You can't rely on the overall commander to know what's going on in front of you in time to formulate a reaction plan for your team. Sometimes, it going to be you and your team (whether that's a 2-4-6 man team or more) that is stuck, in the wind. Are you going to try to respond with a set response? Or can you reliably come up with an action plan to extricate your team? That should be the goal of training; to make every operator on your team capable of stepping up and being the team leader in a pinch. That's how Tier I teams train.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
User avatar
tacticalguy
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby Breacher01 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:36 am

I've typed 3 responses to your question/discussion now, but deleted them again, because if I want to explain our routines, tactics etc. I would be giving away sensitive information.

I can tell you about my military background, or when I was working in the private sector, but those tactics are already well known.
Breacher01
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:42 pm

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby tacticalguy » Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:47 am

Breacher01 wrote:I've typed 3 responses to your question/discussion now, but deleted them again, because if I want to explain our routines, tactics etc. I would be giving away sensitive information.

I can tell you about my military background, or when I was working in the private sector, but those tactics are already well known.


I have no desire to read about your routines or tactics. I'm all about OPSEC. I was trying to get people to explain what they would do if they hit a wall, like in my scenario, not HOW they would do it. For me, if I found myself, as the team leader on that entry team and we were encountering heavy resistance, such as an MG nest? I would do a fighting withdrawal and establish a perimeter. Decide if I wanted to do a standoff attack, isolate and wait out or attempt negotiations, depending on the mission goals.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
User avatar
tacticalguy
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby Breacher01 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:02 am

I understand, but its difficult for me because its almost a daily event, but I'm not allowed to state situations and responses in detail. This would be easier if the answers weren't right there, in the details.

But I'll try to follow the discussion as you present it.

First off I would like to mention a limited entry with a 2 of 4 man team encountering an MG position would produce somewhere between 1,5 and 4 tombstones. If you encounter 1 or several MG positions or other secured and dug in enemy forces your best bet is to spread out and take cover, as best as possible.

-The first thing you do is try to provide cover for your self (platoon strength unit). I never did penetrate enemy terrain in small numbers, but i guess what goes for 4 fire-teams is the same for a single unit of say 5 strength.

-Secondly you should evaluate your own forces strength and burden(wounded/non-combatants/equipment) versus your expected opposition.

-Lastly you should let any nearby friendlies and higher brass know as much about your situation as possible, and hope there's help.


When in open ground first establish a perimeter, but don't plan on keeping it, retreat is often the worst option, because if opposing forces have secured and manned positions they will count on you to do one of 2 things, secure a perimeter or fall back into a better defend able position. Your opponent aren't stupid, and will expect you to hold ground or find a better position when pinned down.
This was very obvious in Afghanistan were I helped rebuilding the country and get the local warlords very very rich.

If at all possible you need to advance, flank or radio in supporting fire.

Indoors, or focused on a single or limited amount of structures while "policing", we do often have negotiations with suspects. We want them either to give themselves up or arrest them without harming them too much(in the Netherlands anything with stitches involved often is to much for the media).

We know the suspect most of the time, and we see them as mental patients instead of criminals often. The goal always is to get someone or more people in front of a judge. its been quite a while since our unit shot someone somewhere other then the leg, but there are still mayor arteries of course.

with danger to the direct surroundings, public or hostages or LEO's, sometimes negotiations fail, or aren't a real solution to begin with. that's where the Mogadishu drill's come into play. as a last resort.

In short: Outdoors in the army there's totally different responses to policework in residential area's, and every mission has its own objectives, dangers and ROE's

Your discussion is well chosen, since its answers are virtually unlimited, maybe limited to the people who reply.
Breacher01
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:42 pm

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby tacticalguy » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:14 am

Thank you, sir. Excellent summation.

Your discussion is well chosen, since its answers are virtually unlimited, maybe limited to the people who reply.


THAT hits to the core of this little thought problem. There is NO cookie-cutter solution to this scenario. There is NO cookie-cutter solution to any tactical situation. What works for the German GSG9 in a given situation may not work for the French Sûreté or British SAS in another scenario. This thought problem actually started because of an argument that I was having with someone, who stated that from his educated Point of View, paying specially trained officers to do SWAT operations was silly when there should be a manual and let the regular officers follow the manual. He said that it would save money.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
User avatar
tacticalguy
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby Breacher01 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:26 am

My unit (DSI) follow similar procedures as German, French, and Belgian units like RAID and GSG. The main difference is we are a combined police and military unit, formed from members from both backgrounds, and in other EU countries units almost always are either military OR police.
Breacher01
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:42 pm

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby tacticalguy » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:43 am

Breacher01 wrote:My unit (DSI) follow similar procedures as German, French, and Belgian units like RAID and GSG. The main difference is we are a combined police and military unit, formed from members from both backgrounds, and in other EU countries units almost always are either military OR police.


Yes, I understand. What I'm attempting to illustrate is that you not only need to know how to do the techniques and procedures, you need to have an understanding of the logic behind them. The point behind that is then, when things go wrong, you have an idea of what you need to do to extricate yourself. You're not a robot or automaton. It's like that old Rule, "If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush." Translation: If you're attack is going too well, you're walking into an ambush. People that are reading from a manual wouldn't recognize that. You and I, we would.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
User avatar
tacticalguy
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby Breacher01 » Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:07 pm

That is very typical in field strategy since the Greeks took on unit formations times up to and including late medieval period. You fake your line is broken, and tricking the enemy into moving into a preplanned surrounded position.

I suspect the statement was even more true then in modern warfare. In the case of the second world war the Germans initially had great success with their "Blitzkrieg", but the battle of the bulge failed because their tanks and infantry got so far ahead of their supply lines they ground to a halt.

The same goes for operation Barbarossa, Hitlers plan to invade Russia, then CCCP. Hitler and his staff made the same mistake Napoleon made earlier, Russia is so vast its practically impossible to take in one "fighting season", and then you get bogged down in its hard winter.

When fighting a non-conventional opponent I don't know its that easy to tell. In Afghanistan our only clues of an imminent contact were the response of locals. They knew where the Taliban was, and if they were planning to fight. They often chose not to pick a fight and blended in with the local population. They knew very well how to pick a fight.

As a private sector security worker is got shot at regularly, but most of the time from ridiculous distances, just accurate enough to hinder us from doing our work, but definitely not with the intention to kill or injure personnel or equipment.
Breacher01
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:42 pm

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby tacticalguy » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:50 am

Then, you understand what I was attempting to illustrate, good.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)
User avatar
tacticalguy
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Your limited entry just tanked, what now?

Postby Breacher01 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:28 pm

I wish my mental picture of it was a bit more vague, but that's in hindsight. I couldn't wait for the first time actually...
Breacher01
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:42 pm


Return to CQB entry tactics / room clearing

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest