Tactical diagramming 2

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jimothy_183
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Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:11 am

What would a team do if they were entering a structure without any knowledge of the layout of the structure?

Would you just go in there and try to make educated guesses of what's inside?

And what if you had to enter a structure without time to analyse the building from the outside?

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Post by birddog » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:17 am

good questions:
1) any good team would get intell from a neighbor or a family member and get a rough layout of the property.
and 2) I would never advise a hasty breach unless it is the last choice. But by then, if Intell is doing thier job, the team should have tactical knowlegde of the floorplan.
They say that hard work never killed anyone, but why take that chance ?

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Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:21 am

I'm not sure but in a battlefield sometimes your CO may tell your squad to clear a structure if the unit gets caught up in a firefight and need to clear the "problem building(s)" immediately. This is why I asked that last question before.

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Post by birddog » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:26 am

well, in a combat situation (and I have been in a few of them) we had "fall-backs" . If we suspected that the dwelling could not be breached without lossing an asset, we would call for direct fire. We are not in the bussiness of "losing" a soldier to a lucky shooter.
And a good CO will not intentionaly place his/her soldiers in a situation that cannot be managed. Almost any structure can be breached...even a jail ! yes, my team breached a jail complex in Iraq....what a B I T C H that was.
They say that hard work never killed anyone, but why take that chance ?

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Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:09 am

I see what you are saying but surely the CO would know the team can manage a small house where some of the enemy fire may be coming from?

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Post by Jack » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:11 pm

I do think that a team should be able to enter a structure without prior knowledge of what the inside looks like, or even the outside for that matter. Although every attempt would be made to avoid situations like that. This is important because often structures don't look like you thought they would inside.

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Post by jimothy_183 » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:56 pm

Jake wrote:This is important because often structures don't look like you thought they would inside.
Like the picture I put up on this thread?

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Post by Jack » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:21 am

Exactly. You don't always know.

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Post by birddog » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:37 am

one other thing that I noticed: All that was shown was a house. In ANY situation, even rapid response...you would have some INTELL ! When SWAT or any police agency arrives at a scene, they have some intell to work with and develope a plan. Someone had to call 911 and report a situation that merited a SWAT Team deployment. Is the subject alone or is there a hostage(s), kids, so forth; is the subject armed ? if so, with what ? is the subject male or female, age , race? Do we have a name? is there drugs involved.
Simple things like that can make all the difference in developing a way to render the situation in a favorable way.
They say that hard work never killed anyone, but why take that chance ?

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Post by jimothy_183 » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:38 am

Would you recommend creating scenarios or something?

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Post by birddog » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:08 am

absolutly. Give some intell on the situation and see how each poster reacts. Usually you will have some subject info, disposition and if there is any threat of hostages and/or weopons. Also, we will have witness info, such as what they have seen/saw/heard.
They say that hard work never killed anyone, but why take that chance ?

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Post by jimothy_183 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:11 am

Ok I got some candidates.

Supermarket stand off
Caravan park with barricaded suspects where 4 caravans have to be cleared
Hostage situation in a TV station
Hostage situation in a Convention centre
Home Invasion
Arrest warrant for a "freeway sniper"

Which would you like to take on first?

Please note it will take me quite a while to get one of these scenarios up as it will take me time to get pics and write the briefings down.
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

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Post by birddog » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:00 pm

jimothy, I say start off with the basic ones first......A favorite for all SWAT and CQB operators.......HOME INVASION of a crack house !
They say that hard work never killed anyone, but why take that chance ?

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Post by jimothy_183 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:13 pm

Sorry the home invasion of what I got is a bunch of crooks who took the residents hostage.

Is that still ok?
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Post by Jack » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:06 am

Here is the thing guys. I think this is an great way to train, but I doubt I will be giving my two cents worth. I don't mind discussing individual tactics, and to an extent two man team tactics. However I don't feel comfortable breaking down how law enforcement might handle a mass incident, due to the fact that I believe this information could get into the wrong hands.

Basically I don't mind discussing tactics, but I am more reserved about discussing strategies. I would consider setting up one of theses scenarios. However I am too busy at the moment to do one. I have been training law enforcement officers all week on how to deal with an active shooter situation. I was the bad guy on Monday and took several simmunition rounds. Today I only managed to get shot once, even though I was an instructor and not carrying any weapons. Carry on guys.

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Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:08 am

Jake wrote: this information could get into the wrong hands.
Well, this discourages me a bit seeing how I'm not a fan of the "bad guys".
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Post by birddog » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:15 am

Jake wrote:Here is the thing guys. I think this is an great way to train, but I doubt I will be giving my two cents worth. I don't mind discussing individual tactics, and to an extent two man team tactics. However I don't feel comfortable breaking down how law enforcement might handle a mass incident, due to the fact that I believe this information could get into the wrong hands.

Basically I don't mind discussing tactics, but I am more reserved about discussing strategies. I would consider setting up one of theses scenarios. However I am too busy at the moment to do one. I have been training law enforcement officers all week on how to deal with an active shooter situation. I was the bad guy on Monday and took several simmunition rounds. Today I only managed to get shot once, even though I was an instructor and not carrying any weapons. Carry on guys.
I have to agree with Jake on this one ! Tactics are ok to discus , especialy when one can find Field Guides or Police Training videos on line, Those are not considered CLASSIFIED information. But a MILITARY or POLICE STRATAGY, that needs to remain CLASSIFIED. I myself have wonderfull Tactics we used in Iraq that I am prohibited in sharring outside of my unit. Thats just the way it has to be here. Now I dont think that Jake or myself will have any issue in "GUIDING" you and offer ideas or hints.
They say that hard work never killed anyone, but why take that chance ?

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Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:20 am

Alright then I'll try and get some photos and then the scenario up with the briefing.
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

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Post by birddog » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:27 am

Awsome.......if I can help, let me know
They say that hard work never killed anyone, but why take that chance ?

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Post by jimothy_183 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:52 am

Keep your eyes peeled, I might be done in a few hours but don't hold your breath I can't guarantee it will be done before you guys have to go to sleep or work.
semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

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